Anti-Japan protests across China over islands dispute

[JAJIBUJI]

If I remember correctly, China said something about historically owning these areas. If that logic were to apply, I think Japan owned almost all that area most recently, so I think China shouldn't argue about that. Not that I support any side.

 

[sapped]

sigh, China should just nuke those dirty japs and get it over with

 

[TravelingWind]

YES exactly!

Actually china and the US are teaming up to stop the creation of green energy and free energy so they can continue to "HAVE THE POWAH"

 

[my_car244]

@Uso, Shinji
@TravelingWind

Does China aim energy resources for oneself at the island of other countries?
How about Korea? same purpose?
So, do they have a good relationship between China and South Korea?

I'm sorry many questions.


@Glassjaw

I'm sorry friend,Glassjaw.
I did a stupid thing in excitement.
I'll never use stupid words,and I've already posted a fix.
I am ashamed,at the same time I want to be a gentleman.
Sorry again.Also Everybody.

 

[Uso.. Shinji]

@my_car244
I am not quite sure of your question on energy...


As for the other one...

China and South Korea do not share a friendly relationship and are tied over quite a few things (such as China's support of North Korea, it's many economic blockades and it's ever-increasing buildup of attack forces...

 

[TravelingWind]

could you rephrase the first part of your question?

I don't quite get what you're asking uzzled:

 

[anigu]

If I remember correctly, China said something about historically owning these areas. If that logic were to apply, I think Japan owned almost all that area most recently, so I think China shouldn't argue about that. Not that I support any side.

Regarding this, all conflicting sides have their own historical arguments and none will back down. I've even heard that China's historic claims are quite unreasonable. But of course, I don't think we can safely conclude that others' similar claims are genuine either. If they are, there would be no conflict in the first place.

 

[Ceewan]

But of course, I don't think we can safely conclude that others' similar claims are genuine either. If they are, there would be no conflict in the first place.

hmmmmmm.....

From 1885 on, surveys of the Senkaku Islands had been thoroughly made by the Government of Japan through the agencies of Okinawa Prefecture and by way of other methods. Through these surveys, it was confirmed that the Senkaku Islands had been uninhabited and showed no trace of having been under the control of China. Based on this confirmation, the Government of Japan made a Cabinet Decision on 14 January 1895 to erect a marker on the Islands to formally incorporate the Senkaku Islands into the territory of Japan.

Since then, the Senkaku Islands have continuously remained as an integral part of the Nansei Shoto Islands which are the territory of Japan. These islands were neither part of Taiwan nor part of the Pescadores Islands which were ceded to Japan from the Qing Dynasty of China in accordance with Article II of the Treaty of Shimonoseki which came into effect in May of 1895.

Accordingly, the Senkaku Islands are not included in the territory which Japan renounced under Article II of the San Francisco Peace Treaty. The Senkaku Islands have been placed under the administration of the United States of America as part of the Nansei Shoto Islands, in accordance with Article III of the said treaty, and are included in the area, the administrative rights over which were reverted to Japan in accordance with the Agreement Between Japan and the United States of America Concerning the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands signed on 17 June 1971. The facts outlined herein clearly indicate the status of the Senkaku Islands being part of the territory of Japan.

The fact that China expressed no objection to the status of the Islands being under the administration of the United States under Article III of the San Francisco Peace Treaty clearly indicates that China did not consider the Senkaku Islands as part of Taiwan. It was not until the latter half of 1970, when the question of the development of petroleum resources on the continental shelf of the East China Sea came to the surface, that the Government of China and Taiwan authorities began to raise questions regarding the Senkaku Islands.

Furthermore, none of the points raised by the Government of China as "historic, geographic or geological" evidence provide valid grounds, in light of international law, to support China's arguments regarding the Senkaku Islands.

source:
http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/senkaku/senkaku.html


Time to introduce some facts into this discussion:

It is important to look at the current dispute between China and Japan in the light of the history of Chinese foreign policy. Chang Chi-hsiung of Taiwan’s Academia Sinica has argued that the pre-modern Chinese world order was based on status and stability (mingfen zhixu). Legitimacy rested not on physical control but on the recognition and enactment of the proper roles and duties appropriate to one’s status. Under the logic of this system, emperors extended their power beyond China’s borders not by force, but by their ‘benevolence’ or ‘virtuous’ rule, which Confucian thinkers believed would lead foreign states to acknowledge the emperor’s moral suzerainty. Thus, outside China proper, it was possible to rule even where there was no mechanism of physical governance in place. Practical benefits accompanied acceptance of China’s nominal status at the head of this universal structure: tributary trade with China was not only extremely profitable but also provided many goods that could not be easily accessed elsewhere. On the other hand, gifts and titles from the Chinese emperor allowed rulers to strengthen their own position vis-à-vis their subjects. Although Japan stayed out of the system during its Tokugawa period (1603-1868) the vast majority of states in east, inner and south-east Asia, including the Ryukyus (modern-day Okinawa), accepted a tributary relationship with China.

So while not directly a part of ancient China there is a long point in history when many areas, inclucing Taiwan, Korea, Okinawa and the Senkaku/ Diaoyu islands payed homage to and bowed to the will of, the Emperor of China. This changed between 1894-95 when China was defeated by Japan in Naval battle and Japan layed claim to the afore mentioned areas as their own.

source:
http://www.historytoday.com/joyman-lee/senkakudiaoyu-islands-conflict

Since the transfer of administration from United States to Japan in 1971, Japan's ownership of the islands has been disputed by the People's Republic of China (PRC) and the Republic of China (ROC, also known as Taiwan). The Chinese claim the discovery and control of the islands from the 14th century. Japan controlled the islands from 1895 until its surrender at the end of World War II. The United States administered them as part of the United States Civil Administration of the Ryukyu Islands from 1945 until 1972, when the islands reverted to Japanese control under the Okinawa Reversion Treaty between the United States and Japan.

source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands

So this is nothing new but after Chinas' invasion of Tibet heads are started to turn when China says they own someplace. They now have a recent history of backing up these land claims with weapons and force. The protests, (and of course they are promoted by the Chinese government), are nothing new either. Fact is Japan has the most recent claim on these islands and saying these uninhabited islands were on the route of those that payed us tribute in order to trade in the East China Sea a few hundred years ago so that makes them ours, is a pretty lame claim in my opinion....yet China is making it nontheless. China is a much more powerful empire then in the 14th Century so that if they are claiming rights to Taiwan, the Ryukyu Islands and Okinawa in rhetoric.....it just might be a good idea to take them seriously....just in case. It does not seem to matter that this is all over 7 square kilometres (1,700 acres)! And the majority of that is uninhabitable rock! (figure an acre to be about the size of a regulation soccer/football field).

Given the facts I side with Japan on this one.

other good links of interest:
http://www.hikot.com/index.php?do=/senkaku/
http://guambatstew.blogspot.de/2012/08/senkaku-or-diaoyu.html

 

[pnbi]

I don't think we're on the same page.:dunno:

So you mean...
Japan (X) because WWII things
China (O) many fake things,media controls,invade other country and Islands (and get ODA money from Japan), Tibet's massacre and human rights violation.

China is No.1 in the world.
Is it OK Like this?
So you say that China's neighbors never hate china,right?
You take advantage,huh??

So I wonder why you come here?
You hate Japan,right?
Here has many Japanese culture and medias.
If you hate japan,you should be do to boycott "all Japanese things" until future.
You contradict yourself!!

The history is important for me,too.
But the history without future-oriented is not important for me.

If Japan had apologized to China, do China apologize to Tibet?
If Japan had apologized to Korea, do Korea apologize to Vietnam?
I don't think so.
The future is going to continue to better learn from history each other.
I don't think that will going to resolve by hate,demonstrations or riots.

You must live in the past.
I live in the now and the future.

So You believe Willy Brandt and Helmut Kohl those two traitor of Germany both live in the past.

 

[Uso.. Shinji]

@Ceewan

I must say after doing much of that research a couple of years ago I came to that conclusion. I also managed to find documentation from the Chinese Emperor that thanked the Japanese for saving its shipwrecked sailors from "Japan's Senkaku Islands".
As well as documentation from the Han dynasty which also included a statement that China had discovered the islands whilst en route to Japan. It is all a horrible historical mess with both sides claiming them. Though I too side with them being Japanese under basically everything you have said.

EDIT: Turns out I got my facts wrong. The letter is in fact from the newly established ROC dated 1920. My specialty is Japanese history. I think I will keep to that in the future.

As for the source article: http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2010/09/24/coming-attractions/

 

[my_car244]

This is old map from "People's Daily"(人民网),1953.

Could you translate this map anyone?
I don't know Japanese or Chinese...

 

[snowyjoe]

I understand the government going crazy about these islands... but I don't understand why citizens even care... it's not like claiming these islands for your country are gonna reduce your taxes by 20% or anything similar.

I think these people demonstrating don't care if China or Japan have the islands or not. They just want a reason to be angry.

 

[my_car244]

@pnbi

Ofcause,I respect them. Also Chiune Sugihara,Sun Yat-sen,Oskar Schindler,etc...many great people who look historically.
I just think it doesn't start anything if see only the past.
And I just worry that each citizen’s relationship become to worse.
I think we need future-oriented,friendship,and respect each other.

 

[Ceewan]

I understand the government going crazy about these islands... but I don't understand why citizens even care... it's not like claiming these islands for your country are gonna reduce your taxes by 20% or anything similar.

I think these people demonstrating don't care if China or Japan have the islands or not. They just want a reason to be angry.

If there is one country China holds a grudge against more than Taiwan it is Japan. It is probably not very hard to gather sentiment against Japan in China, easy as throwing a log on a fire. Japan didn't just "beat" China in WWII, (known as the Second Sino-Japanese War), they humilated them by making it look easy. The Chinese took huge casualties in that war, around 4 million, (yes million), an estimated quarter-million of those from the "r*** of Nanking" alone.

Like it or not, there is bad blood here between these two countries and China would probably love to get some payback to bandage their wounded pride and prove that now they are the dominant country in Asia, not Japan. They may just be right too but I would never count out the Japanese.

I don't think Japan is posturing here because they are backed into a corner. It isn't people or land that Japan is defending here. It is their honor. If anyone doesn't think the Japanese don't take honor seriously they have another think coming. It is very possible that Japan will defend these meaningless pieces of rock with their lives. It might also be possible they are looking forward to it. I don't expect any compromise from the Japanese here.


Of course it would make more sense to forgive and forget. China and Japan could accomplish much more united rather than divided but that is just not going to happen.

 

[Vegetablez]

Normally I wouldn't care to reply on such things, TravelingWind and my_car224, but I believe your 'passion' for Japan is clouding your judgement.

These are not simply islands, these are areas at sea that are great for fishing and sometimes even have oil drilling opportunities. Just because China is already big and has 'a lot', does not mean they can't use the resources. Also, no country would give up these sites - they are too resourceful. Any country would do that, it also happens in western countries.

Also, bringing up China's and Japan's past relationships is meaningless on the governmental scale. The governments don't care about that, they care about the resources. Only the people care about the past which is why these kind of protests happen - also in Japan. Many Chinese people are angry about what the Japanese did during their invasion in China so it is not strange that they respond like the way they do in this news item.

 

[bollock]

I don't think we're on the same page.:dunno:

So you mean...
Japan (X) because WWII things
China (O) many fake things,media controls,invade other country and Islands (and get ODA money from Japan), Tibet's massacre and human rights violation.

China is No.1 in the world.
Is it OK Like this?
So you say that China's neighbors never hate china,right?
You take advantage,huh??

So I wonder why you come here?
You hate Japan,right?
Here has many Japanese culture and medias.
If you hate japan,you should be do to boycott "all Japanese things" until future.
You contradict yourself!!

The history is important for me,too.
But the history without future-oriented is not important for me.

If Japan had apologized to China, do China apologize to Tibet?
If Japan had apologized to Korea, do Korea apologize to Vietnam?
I don't think so.
The future is going to continue to better learn from history each other.
I don't think that will going to resolve by hate,demonstrations or riots.

You must live in the past.
I live in the now and the future.

Hey dude. I am a Chinese and I hate fake products and media censorship and even Communist Party no less than you. However, as to the issues related to Japan, I would say Japan deserves all the blame from the countries that were violated by the Japanese army during Wrold War II until the Japanese government confesses its guilt in World War II.

 

[Laima]

As a overseas Chinese (neither born in China, HK or Taiwan), my own take is this.

Japan and China need each other. The Japanese needs the cheap Chinese labour to reap more profits and the Chinese needs Japanese companies to invest and create more jobs for their locals. If you read up, Japanese companies are one of the highest contributor to the Chinese economy.

Both Noda and Hu know this. But we have to understand, Noda is facing a huge drop in popularity back at home and Hu is handing over to Xi Jinping. For politicians, nothing helps to boost rating like your typical nationalistic sabre-rattling. Hence, China send over activists to 'invade' while Japan allowed their own nationalists to raise Japanese flags all over the island to show their own that they will not be bullied.

We could be getting at each other throats in this thread, but as we argue, both Japanese and Chinese businessmen are probably having a good time and toasting to each other over a newly-inked business deal worth millions.

To be honest, while a few Chinese protestors are genuinely aggrieved about Japan, most are taking to the streets to vent their anger on their local officials and government. In China, unlike the US, people are not allowed to freely protest. However, if one uses nationalistic issues such as this, chances are the local police will close one eye to the destruction they cost, since they will be seen as bastards if they arrest these people. And HK people actually hates the mainlanders more than the Japanese. So don't be deceived by a bunch of HKers landing on Senkaku/Diaoyu and thinking that HK is anti-Japan. Most HKers I talk to have more gripes against the Chinese than the Japanese.

The CCP has actually benefited much from the Japanese. During the Sino-Japanese war, they were actually pretty gleeful that the KMT were too busy fighting against the Japanese to get rid of them. Mao actually ordered the rebels to sit back and let both sides exhaust each other off, and when the time is right, claim victory. Hence, after the war, the exhausted KMT was thrown out of China into Taiwan.

Furthermore, the CCP in the past had accepted millions of dollars in aid from the Japanese govt. If they were really sincere about getting an apology from Japan, why accept $$$ from them first? Obviously, they don't really give a fuck about the Japanese invasion. It is only when they need to shore up domestic ratings, then Japan becomes the bogeyman. In reality, China has received much $$$ from Japan, so they aren't one to protest either.

However, there is no denial that the Imperial Japanese had committed much war crimes against their victims. Only issue now is, they should stop forcing the current generation to apologise. I don't think its fair to get the son to apologise for his grandfather's deeds, when he was not even born to witness what his grandfather did. Let bygones be bygones. Clutching onto straws of the past just makes you look like an idiot.

I can understand that the older generations of China and Korea will bear a hate against Japan. But I believe that the hatred should stop at their generation and not seep into the young ones. If not, all this will just lead to further wars, which goes against what the Allies had intended in WWII, to create a better world for the future generation.

 

[amwf]

(I hopefully think) China will kindly understand that Japan has already suffered major disasters at Fukushima. Compared to China, Japan is a relatively small country. Also Japan has been punished enough through two catastrophic nuclear attacks by the US (in my personal opinion)..

 

[lactophilia]

Could you translate this map anyone? I don't know Japanese or Chinese...

The map just mentiones both names, in Chinese and Japanese characters. More important would be the line that shows a border (as it runs it looks like it's considered part of Japan here). More important was an article (I added a scan a few days ago) from the Renmin Ribao in which the islands were spoken of as part of Japan. However, this is discussed in context to the changes that followed American and other colonial powers' intervention in Asia. Not an easy topic. Interesting too, how this conflict gets mirrored with Dokdo/Takeshima-Island ...

 

[lactophilia]

@Ceewan

I must say after doing much of that research a couple of years ago I came to that conclusion. I also managed to find documentation from the Chinese Emperor that thanked the Japanese for saving its shipwrecked sailors from "Japan's Senkaku Islands".

Hello Shinji-san.

Albeit you replied to Ceewan, out of scientific/historical curiosity I want to ask you for this source you mentioned. Do you remember which Emperor this was and where it was written?

Thanks in advance.