Dokdo, the island of dispute??

[XYXX]

Wow this is a really interesting thread. It seems like there is no solution to this and things will just get worse... But is that really true? Does it really have to be this? It seems like the two countries just have a problem with each other and are letting it out through this island ordeal. The problem is much deeper and how they both think they are right. I'm sure they don't even care about the island too much, and are just at the point where they don't want to let the other side take the island. (because they want to cause the other side pain maybe???)

I think something that will help these kind of problems is to educate both sides that their countries make mistakes. To educate people that everything can't be right and that both sides have errors, and that both sides have committed horrible crimes and things to one another.

Japan needs to educate its people about the things it did wrong, and Korea the same. Than things may start to change for the better. Most importantly with something like this I think countries need to point out their mistakes. If both sides believe they made mistakes and are wrong thats when things will get better. Not when one sides thinks the other made mistakes.

This whole island dispute reminds me of the problem kids have. Where they fight over a toy. Some third party should cut the island in half and see which side cries more about it. And thats the side that gets to keep it. lol.... If only things were that easy...sigh...

 

[ASSASSIN27]

Dokdo

Yeah. I heard about this argument for the 3 year's I was living back and forth from Seoul to Tokyo. The island is actually owned and governed by the Republic of Korea, but Japan disputes that the island actually belongs to them because of historical documents. From what my friend's told me in Seoul, the islands are inhabitable by humans and therefore bear no actual economic status, but are held in a high respect as a cultural icon for Koreans. I am Korean myself so I can understand how the Korean government and the Korean people feel on this issue, but in reality the islands pose no benefit to either side, but continue to keep the heated and distant hatred between the two cultures going. I myself don't see many differences between the two cultures, but actually see more similarities. Although the Japanese at one time tried to erase the Korean people's culture and forced them to learn Japanese or face death, I also live in a new era where Japanese and Koreans both live in each other's countries and attend each other's striving universities. We need to start accepting each other and just quite fighting. Hangook + Nihon = Same.

 

[ASSASSIN27]

Wow. Yeah. I forgot about the cultural spread. The first man to travel to Korea was Chinese and the first man to travel to Japan was Korean (although they hadn't established individual cultures at that time) and Japan's #1 religion (Buddhism) came from Korea. Even the Japanese written language came from Korea. If you speak Korean and Japanese (Like I do) than you can clearly hear the similarities among the two languages ("Cheers" in Korean is Gan Bae and in Japanese is Gan Bai.

 

[iamnowonline]

it's really not that difficult to understand. It's like this: america used to belong to the first americans. But by way of force, bribery, introducing addictive substances, etc, the actual land of america was taken, and then legally repossed as new america, with legal documents.

Well, these zionists have already drawn up how to divide asia into provinces, the same way america currently is already divided up by UN, in case of internal conflict or civil war. History has shown that when it comes to land, it's the aggressor who is not the rightful owner of the land. Like the american troops on iraq soil. Americans who did not want to go in, but were coerced by the portrayal of middle eastern people as "terrorists"(except for israel of course...).

This dokdo conflict along with other so-called "polarizing issues" such as the the 2002 japan/korea soccer beef, is being used to help create something akin to the north american union and the european union. Except it's going to be the asian-pacific union. There's a reason why japan, who was part of the axis during WWII is being favorably portrayed by the zionist media to the allies. THere was a beef not long ago when it was found that in japanese history books, "comfort women" were undermined and when the prime minister of japan even suggested that nanking was exaggerated as well as other asian comfort women. But then, why doesn't the media blow up on the fact that in china, history books teach that south korea was the aggressor and attacked north korea first in the korean war? Why isn't there a big news report about the african diamond mines and the corruption that's still going on to keep the wars in africa going on? Simply put, they want our opinions to be formed first, so that no amount of real evidence will persuade us. They feed us a certain kind of information that leads us away from the real issue at hand, and when our opinions about those false leads are formed, they put a "spin" on or reinterpret the real issue at hand.

The only way to find out who really owns dokdo is to investigate who has a deeper connection to these zionists: korea or japan. This of course will never happen, because our opinions are already formed, and the media will just throw fuel on both sides, so that the superficial issues will only be discussed. In which case, dokdo will go to which ever nation the zionists think can be their patsy, and will have the necessary documents to prove it.

 

[desioner]

Japan will be never respected by other countries unless they fix their acts. Don't blame other people, think why Japan is getting disrespected in the international society.
I'm done.
P.S. Could Japan stop the whaling? Don't they just get it? Everyones calling them stupid and they JUST DONT GET IT. And asking why no one respect Japan?

Well after reading all that has been said I figured I'd say just a little. I'm not sure of the disrespect that your speaking of. I can't name a single country that says it disrespects Japan. People are the only ones to blame as it's people that created & perpetuate the problem. Human nature is the strongest force in the world. It's what drives us to do our best and worst. This is just another clear example of that.
Actually I'm glad that you're done. Your posts were an important addition to the argument but as guy and others stated the appeal to emotions is not the best way to go to court. Sure we're all human and we all have the same emotions but courts & justice are usually best swayed by actions & clear hard facts.
Whales are, like all other plants & animals a resource for humans to use. That by no means gives us the right to hunt them until they are extinct but the Japanese and other countries have always hunted whales for important industries. They have I believe done a great job at cutting down on the amount of whaling and there really is no reason for them to stop all out. With the current cost of fuels even more important sea life is not being caught. Again I can't see how this affects other countries to disrespect Japan.
After all do you really disrespect Japan enough to register to a web forum that is solely concerned with the good things that Japan produces? Perhaps this is the reason you registered here? There is no country in the world that has not stained it's hands in it's brothers blood. There is also no country in the world that has not lied or bent the truth in it's favor of past events. That's what we do.
As some other members have mentioned I hope that this and other future disputes between other countries for whatever resources are needed can be dealt with in civilized and diplomatic ways. This is the 21st century after all, are we still beasts?rhetoric
desioner

 

[Unregistrado]

Europe made an union after the war. Asia Africa and so on stays divided sometimes over silly rocks. An asian or far asian union would resolve a lot of problems.

 

[kipper]

Almost all Asian countries in the area have a general dislike towards the Japanese, but it's not without reason. The apathy, denial and ignorance of Japanese War Crimes by the government and idea of Japanese superiority do not seem to be isolated to a few remote individuals. When a manga depicting Chinese as cannibals and Koreans as having nothing to be proud of become top sellers, it's hard to believe that only a handful of people share those beliefs (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/i...en=3469faba7ec3df0d&ex=1133672400&oref=slogin)
This kind of thing does not go unnoticed and does nothing but raise suspicion and distrust from the offended nations, not to mention anger.

Also, the atrocities of Unit 731 are a topic of concern for many countries, feeling that Japan has not done enough to apologize or officially acknowledge the war crimes. Unit 731 atrocities were horrible beyond imagination, one doctor even r***ing a 13-year old Chinese girl until she was pregnant, just so he could dissect her while she was alive and with baby. Many Unit 731 members are still free, though the US didn't help much by granting them immunity for their experimental findings.(http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...750C0A963958260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1)
At least the Japanese PM Fukuda doesn't visit Yasukuni shrine unlike Koizumi did. However, it's not like the offended nations are quick to forgive either.

The Chinese are especially angry that the Japanese generally downplay the severity of the r*** of Nanjing, an event so horrific a Nazi stationed there at the time, Hans Rabe, did everything he could to shield the Chinese citizens, earning him the title of "living Buddha" among the Chinese. (The Search for Modern China: A Documentary Collection By Pei-Kei Chang, Michael Lestz and Jonathon D Spence contains a section that has excerpts from Rabe's diary of the events, including the plight of woman who was r***ing over twenty times in one day. Rabe's disgust of the Japanese soldiers is evident throughout. The Good Man of Nanking. The Diaries of John Rabe if anyone wants to check it out.) A Japanese manga depicting the events was pulled from shelves after politicians (notice I said politicians, not people) declared it "distorts history." (http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/04/11/banned-manga-depicting-najing-massacre/)

What's unfortunate is that people tend to take the actions of the government or a few influential figures as representative of a country's whole. Most Japanese exchange students I've talked to actually had no knowledge of any of the mentioned events, which suggests more a problem with the system rather than its people. Sadly, people tend to misplace their anger towards individuals rather than with the government/system that supposedly represents them, as surely any American can tell you this happens often for many countries, not just Japan (stupid, redneck, oil-loving American cowboys LOLOLZOMGWTFBBQ!!1!!).

In the end, there's no sense in defending or accusing Japanese people individually, since many have little to no knowledge or relevance of/to the events. There are even several groups in Japan, comprised of Japanese that advocate for the acknowledgment and education of past war crimes and aggressions as well as promoting a more inclusive world view and history. However, there is a legitimate base for criticisms against the Japanese government. Yes, other Asian governments are stubborn and reluctant to forgive, but these things are recent events, not so easily forgotten by the victims, some people from that era are still alive and still have to deal with what happened to them back then. Japan as a government does little to acknowledge or apologize for past war crimes nor does it do much to educate their youth on their past mistakes, despite overwhelming evidence of such events. (Only recently was the Nanjing Massacre, or 'Nanjing Incident' as they call it, added to textbooks with a short acknowledgment that it happened and that documents raise doubts about the death toll. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies) I guess the point is, everyone could benefit from less finger pointing, emotional accusations/outbursts and personal attacks and more open discussion and debate about why Japanese relations with other East Asian countries are so poor. Unfortunately, the wounds are too fresh and it's doubtful either side will give any ground in their stance in the foreseeable future. I doubt that any significant ground will be made in our lifetime, I think it's more likely to take close to another 50 years before East Asian countries can begin seriously mending relations.

 

[guy]

Countries or ethnicities that have been victimized feel those tragic moments of their histories with particular poignancy. Africans regarding slavery, Jewish regarding Halocaust, and so on: their sufferings make up a significant part of their identities. Within China-Korea-Japan relations, people always stress the warcrimes of Imperialist Japan -- that Japan currently chooses to ignore its past -- without giving due consideration that Japan was also a victim, specifically that it is the only nation to have ever suffered from nuclear warfare. That is part of Japan's identity and makes up a significant portion of Japanese psychology.

Of course, American history has propagated a popular belief that the nuclear attacks were justified (because they supposedly ended the war sooner), as if the Japanese deserved to be attacked. Right, so we can forget about Japan's suffering because the attacks were justified. Point is that within a very short period, Japan has been both an aggressor and a victim, which makes understanding its post-war attitudes very difficult to understand.

Not that it justifies the Japanese government's current attitude towards its textbooks, museum, and memorials. Ultimately Japan has a responsibility to acknowledge its past warcrimes. But its nuclear-suffering identity is as important as its past imperialist identity (particularly since Japan is the only nation to have ever suffered nuclear attacks), and it's not fair to simply ignore one and focus on the other, regardless of whether or not you feel the nuclear attacks were justified.

And as much as governments are to blame, media is also responsible. Every news outlet can be accused of some amount of bias. The NYT article throws out numbers of the "bestselling" mangas without any qualifications: What demographic bought the books? What is the exact reach of the books compared to other popular genres such as Shounen or Shoujo mangas? Do other mediums such as novels, anime, and movies also have "bestselling" anti-Korean/Chinese messages? The article even emphasizes that nationalists are dominating public debate without discussing the numerous activist groups that seek the opposite side of rebuilding Sino-Korean-Japanese relations, and selects quotations only from individuals who represent the ultranationalist view of Japan, as if every single person in Japan supports the anti-Korean/Chinese sentiment described in the mangas.

This type of biased reporting happens all the time. We're all familiar that media focuses on bad news while good news often goes unreported. The type of national media in China and Korea that panders to anti-Japanese sentiments (as well as Japanese news that focuses on anti-Chinese/Korean sentiments) have a far greater reach than just 360,000 books.

Of course there are anti-Korean and anti-Chinese sentiments in Japan, just as there are anti-Japanese sentiments in Korea and China. But most people just choose the easy answer by finger-pointing without taking the time to study the details. And saying that Japan's relations with its neighbors is poor is awful. Korea has problems with its northern brother and with China; China with Taiwan, Tibet, and its western neighbors, etc. It's stupid (if I may be frank) to think that all East Asian countries are friendly and Japan alone is the troublemaker -- and then to think Japan's anti-China/Korea sentiments are irrational when such biased views against Japan are widespread.

 

[triela]

On second thought, I'd much rather contain my comments in the original thread. I'm awaiting a reply there.

 

[21515]

Do you know?

Sorry, My English is poor.

Japan is our parents, r*** and MURDER, MAKE-SLAVE, ETC, and insulting the country and the QUEEN was MURDERED. Various food and merchandise, went to cut resources.
In addition to distort history and culture of extermination, for Japan's effort to forge policies are also available. :battered:

do you know, our's pain?
You too, and me too, nobody don't knows.:sick:

You are curious. "WHY Koreans, Hatred towards the Japanese? erhaps:"
Japan is forced to invade, but until now did not formally apologize.
They are war and the invasion force, but he does not think he's wrong.

Of course, this hatred is not a valid reason to kill the birds.
You are an issue 'killed the birds' Some people will be made by the majority of the people and Netizen they thought wrong.:bow-pray:

Anyway, Dokdo is not simply.
Japan's claim is political, strategic, economic and social, the reason for this purpose.


- Reference Sites for Dokdo
* Dokdo English Information Site
(English) http://www.ForTheNextGeneration.com/dokdo/　

* The official website of the Republic Korea
(English) http://www.korea.net/News/Issues/IssueView.asp?Issue_no=45

* Cyber Dokdo History Hall
(English) http://english.dokdohistory.com/

* Northeast Asian History Foundation
(English) http://english.historyfoundation.or.kr/

 

[kipper]

What you may see as playing the victim, others may simply see as reacting to certain statements or situations. It's not like the Chinese think, "say, now would be a good time to bring up past Japanese war crimes so we can complain without restraint and wallow in self-pity." Most times, complaints are usually raised in response to Japanese actions or lack thereof, such as the censorship of Japanese textbooks of it's war campaign, a government official's visit to yasukuni, or statements such as this:

“Korea and China are the only countries in the world that talk about the Yasukuni issue,” implying that Japan doesn’t need to care.

On November 26 at a lecture held in Kanazawa, Minister Aso said the above and claimed, “Although some people point out that Japan is isolated and is not welcomed in the region, Japan doesn’t have to care about matters that aren’t important.” (http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?bicode=060000&biid=2005112891088)

I stated before that everyone would benefit from less finger pointing and emotional accusations, but it's naive to believe that all complaints stem from unprovoked, unfounded rage.


While every media may be biased, I would think that an outside media outlet such as the NYT would be a better source than either a Chinese, Japanese or Korean newspaper in regards to this matter. As for the manga, if it's that important to you:

Kenkanryu (volumes 1 and 2 combined) sold more than 650,000 copies, achieving commercial success.[2](http://japanfocus.org/_Rumi_SAKAMOT...ic_Books__A_sign_of_New_Nationalism_in_Japan_)

While it's true it's difficult to determine the actual demographic that purchased the manga, even if half of those 650,000 believe or agree with the sentiments of the manga, isn't that more than there should be? Imagine if a book was was released and sold that well in England containing similar sentiments about America, or if old American literature/movies/entertainment depicting old negro caricatures made a comeback (the coon, the uncle tom, etc.). If the book sold even in the tens of thousands you would see a similarly vocal backlash.

Also, the fact that it was at the top of amazon.co.jp best selling chart along with another controversial manga, An Introduction to China: A Study of Our Bothersome Neighbors, does not go unnoticed:

On the August 15-21 rankings, the “*Message From Amazon.co.jp: The manga titles removed until now from the rankings, Manga—The Hate Korea Wave and Manga—An Introduction to China: A Study of Our Bothersome Neighbors, will be included in the rankings from now on.” (※Amazon.co.jpからのおことわり：これまで漫画のタイトルにつき除外しておりました『マンガ嫌韓流』と『マンガ中国入門 やっかいな隣人の研究』を今回よりランキングに含めております。) was shown, and the two books then occupied the #1 and 2 rankings respectively.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga_Kenkanryu#The_Hate_Japan_Wave)

I offer no emotional outburst or personal remark in the matter, only reasons as to why China and Korea may be possibly reluctant to form amicable relations with Japan. The difference between Chinese/Korean anti-Japanese sentiment and Japanese anti-Chinese/Korean sentiment lies in the countries' histories. While Chinese/Korean anti-Japanese sentiment mainly stems from past war crimes, Japanese anti-Chinese/Korean sentiment seems to mainly stem from a sense of racial superiority and pride. While this sentiment may not be the majority, it certainly is vocal. As for Japan being the victim of a nuclear attack, neither China nor Korea nor any other Eastern Asian country played a role as far as I know.

You don't seem to offer any facts for your arguments, rather you try to find excuses to minimize Japan's role in its poor relations with its neighbors while trying to cast more blame on others. No one said Chinese-Korean relations were great either, but that's not the topic at hand and has little relevance to Japan's status with them. If you can't see that not all criticism against Japan are baseless and believe that Chinese/Korean anti-Japanese sentiment is irrational, then nothing anyone can say will convince you otherwise.

And that, is exactly why they're in this mess in the first place.

 

[downloadx]

This is all typical. Both sides are thoroughly wrong in most of their reasoning, and have made this a completely different issue than the actual island itself. Now it's about who invented what, who the inferior race is, and what legal maneuvers were legal or illegal.

The Korean argument is that the islands belong to them because they are very angry. They are angry because they have been subject to countless crimes by the Japanese (true). They've tied every issue facing their nation into the official stance that the rest of the world is evil and Korea is pure and superior, from American beef to the worldwide Japanese conspiracy to spell their country name with a K instead of a C (sadly true).

The Japanese argument is they secretly made legal maneuvers that now have the force of law. That all other maneuvers of this kind are illegal, except the one they made regarding this one island. This includes the public and open legal maneuvers of the world which they've accepted as law, and they do not dispute all the other territories given away under them. They resent the Koreans for being free and airing the dirty laundry of the last century plus.

The Koreans need to stop using lies and slander to prove their case, and then we can start talking about the island and not their obscene behavior.

 

[arthurdent1]

Korea has long been uber nationalistic. So has Japan but that was severely moderated after they lost WWII. It has arisen again but slowly and for a long time. Also, such overly-nationalistic fervor is quite noticeable in the U.S. too for quite a while and throughout its long history. It has gotten only worse in the Bush years but really started getting bad with Reagan.

Any nation is susceptible to too much nationalism. A little is good but too much is very, very bad. It's really no surprise that animosity still exists between Korea and Japan. The ascendancy of hard-line nationalists only makes a settlement of the matter too difficult. It won't happen now, and, truth be told, powerful people in one or both countries want military action to settle it. This is, of course, wrong. The sensible way to settle it is to take it to a neutral "world court," if such a thing actually exists, and settle the dispute. Such a court should leave open the possibility of having the islands held in common (even though that's unlikely).

Look, there are many countries where evil, overly-nationalistic powers are trying, once again, to gain footholds and rule those all around them. The only way to fight them is to get educated, provide education for all, to keep the internet free and open to all, to stop censorship, to punish those who limit human rights, and to have open, honest discussions about ALL the crimes various governments have committed, both on their own peoples and on other countries peoples.

In case you haven't noticed, here in the U.S. and in many other countries, education is being cut, freedom of speech is being limited, access to educational resources such as the internet is being restricted. There is a real war going on against average citizens of the world by those who have an imperialistic, Machiavellian, royalist view of the world. These people will stop at nothing to gain money and power and think it's right they do anything they want just so life goes back to the way it was years before, when kings ruled peasants. It's up to us to stop them. They don't want reason, they want war. They don't want peace, they want power for themselves.

The ongoing dispute and war of words by Japan and Korea is one more sign this is the case. If they actually sit down and use reason and calmness to settle this, they I'll believe they are going down a different and better path. Until then, I'll continue to view both countries actions with a jaundiced eye.

 

[playertae]

I really don't understand why japan keep saying Dokdo is japan's territory.
But fact is Dokdo is Korean Territory

 

[guy]

Anyone who feels strongly that Dokdo belongs to Korea (and that it merits all sorts of finger-chopping wackiness), now's the perfect chance to have your voice heard!

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/events/dokdo/dokdo.html

 

[onetop2002]

Do You Know?

historically, Dokdo is a Korea territory about 2,000years ago.
It's True.

 

[onetop2002]

Fucking Japanese!

erhaps:The Japanese need to stop using lies and slander to prove their case, and then we can start talking about the island and not their obscene behavior.