Help with Painting Over Doujinshi/Manga

[Sakunyuusha]

See attached image first.

My problem is, it is taking me way too long (over 10 hours) to have even gotten this far on this one picture. And yeah, it doesn't look all that great, either. So obviously I'm doing something -- or many things -- wrong.

But there is one thing I've observed which seems to make life easier, and that's going into the Gimp's Quick Mask mode in order to painfully highlight the precise boundaries you want, to then cut them out from the original picture, to paste them into a brand-new layer, and to then have the freedom to manipulate them in any way you like without worrying about brushing up against previously-adjacent structures. In other words, I can change the brightness, color, etc. of her hair as many times as I like in under a minute and not once will I affect the color of her horns or her eyes or her face.

So my question is, is there an easier way to get Gimp (or other image-editing software) to recognize the difference between the skirt, the hair, the horns, etc. and to have it remove those to a layer of their own? Because painting over them every goddamn time in Quick Mask really fucking sucks, but I can't seem to find a better alternative. :\ Select-by-color options don't work for a heavily-pixelated black-and-white picture like the source material and select-by-shape is really pretty crappy in Gimp (no offense to Gimp's coders).

I just wish there were an easier way for the program to realize where hair begins and clothing or facial skin ends. The human brain can see the difference in under a second, but it's taken me HOURS to select out the hair, the eyes, etc. @_@

Also, I don't know how I did it, but the hair here looks amazing -- and I wish the tail and horns and other parts had the same look to them, too. Any tips on how to get rid of all the "grain" without the tail or horns just becoming one bland shade of purple? The hair is just amazing ... and like I said, I don't know how or why. @_@

 

[Sakunyuusha]

I started all over today from scratch. I still need your help, but this is my new method:

I use the Paths tool in Gimp in order to create a crude outline around a shape. After I've made the crude outline, I grab the line segments and tug them and their x,y-coordinate boxes around in order to make the line segment curvy and to perfectly conform to the shape of the curve it's on. After I finish doing this, I click on "Selection from Path" and it converts my Path-encompassed zone into a proper selection. I then cut it, paste it into a layer all on its own, and continue to do that same procedure for the other body parts.

So far, I've done the following (exhibited in the new sample picture below):

• horns
• hair
• eyebrows
• whites of eyes, white shiny glimmers of eyes
• pupils and irises of eyes
• facial markings
• wings
• tail

The ones I have left to do are:

• skin
• nipples
• fingernails
• ring (miko's left hand)
• collar
• collar buckle
• hakama (miko's)
• hakama (shrine master's)
• penis
• top (shrine master's)
• black background

Obviously one to two of those need not be spliced out (e.g. the black background and the shrine master's upper garment) because with everything else out of the way those would be easy to paint without messing other things up. However, I've still got a lot to get through, and it's still taken me around 4-5 hours to get just this far. :\

P.S. The colors aren't on there permanently (I reset them every time after beta-testing them). So yeah, don't worry about the sloppy red around the hakama or the sloppy color of her skin -- like I said, I haven't properly done those yet! I just threw paint on them real quick to see what they'd look like.

 

[Sakunyuusha]

Here's the original image.

 

[Sakunyuusha]

Maybe I'm too impatient, but while I wait for someone's assistance (PLEASE HELP ME IF YOU KNOW STUFF ABOUT PHOTOSHOP/GIMP! @_@), here's another hurried sample. Again, I haven't made any progress on any layers. Just played around with paint options is all.

 

[Sakunyuusha]

No replies yet. Here are some experiments with lighting which I made after I got tired of working on some of the newest layers. (The priest's penis, the priestess's hands, and the priestess's top garment were some of those layers that I began work on today.) In case you can't tell, the differences are as follows:

lighting1.jpg shows the template picture with the colors on and an initial layer of "darkening solution" (i.e. I overlay gray paint on the picture). I realized that the former miko was rather well-lit for her dark environment, so I tried to go about making her dark without making her skin look alien.

lighting2.jpg was the first attempt. I made everything a little bit darker except for her eyes and facial markings.

lighting3.jpg was the second attempt, where I decided to make her tail, hakama, and the priest's penis even darker than before, because I felt that in lighting2.jpg they stood out too much in contrast with the other layers.

lighting4.jpg is where I darken her facial markings in an attempt to make her face look less artificial in the dark while still letting her seductive eyes glimmer and be creepy and whatnot.

lighting5.jpg is where I caved in and darkened her eyes, too, although I left the whites of her eyes intact.


My personal favorite is lighting4.jpg, but I welcome advice from people who know more about this sort of thing than I do which they think is best/worst and why.


I haven't decided yet which parts of her body I think should have a demonic glow to them or not. The list of body parts includes: her eyes, her facial markings, her horns, and her tail. I lean towards only having her facial markings and eyes be glow-in-the-dark, but I'm afraid that it's difficult to get her facial markings to not be too distracting unless I darken them with the rest of the scenery. :\

 

[Sakunyuusha]

Here's a polite bump since I really would like to learn how to do this more efficiently from someone who knows. I know that there's got to be a faster way. -_-;

For example, this took me about an hour. And it was a rush job that I made for some friends just to show them, and of course it looks crappy -- because I rushed it. If it takes an hour just for a rush job, that's obviously way too long. -_-; I'm doing something wrong, I just know it. I hope. ;_;

 

[Sakunyuusha]

And another version, after editing some more layers. This took about another hour (to edit layers + experimenting with paint modalities).

I keep having to reinvent techniques like how to create a dark room, how to get the right color for the skin, etc. I should save myself the trouble I think and make notes. But these will only save me 10, 15 minutes max. I still need your help, Dear Reader, if I'm to get any better at this.

 

[techie]

If you're using Gimp, are you on Linux by chance?

On the first issue with selections...

I only use photoshop and in there you have a tool allowing you to make selections by colour-range which is a whole heck of a lot faster than lasso selection tools.

If your layers doesnt get exactly to thelines doesn't matter too.
Once you have a part for coloring in a layer, you can use the Layers menu.

Select Layer >> Layer Styles

Then go try out different settings for outside glow and inside glow, pixel by pixel to see if you cant cover the otherwise very sharp edges.

Skin tones are among the hardest you can do.

Try this... (got to do that myself too)

Take a picture of someone with the right skin tone.
Open a copy in photoshop, crop the skin tone part only to a small image say 50x50 pixels
Then in the Edit menu, you have a presets option.
Save the square clip as a preset for your Patterns

When you select the cartoon image and cut the layer out for the skin only, then go to Layers >> and scroll down to Pattern
Select the pattern you just made/saved to your presets and the skintone will be exact as the one on the picture.

Now after this you have to fiddle with the satin in a very light way to round the edges and form the 3d look to it.
Then you can try using the Image >> Adjustments for fast fixes to tone.

If you do it the longer way its better, but adjustments work for small fixes.
The long way around includes doing layer masks.

Follow the work order in photoshops options for layer masking from top to bottom for best result.
Meaning 1) levels 2) curves and so on down the list for best effects.
(Learned that from a photo pro in the US who works a lot with portrait work)

 

[SdeO]

woah! sorry for not replying earlier, I just saw this thread :exhausted:
Sakunyuusha, do you have the original of the second image you're working on? If so, post it here please, I think I can help you a little.

as a general advice, try to use images without screentones, there's no way they look good in color, and erasing them it's a pain in the ass. A pic like this is your best friend!

and it's more cute! :relief:


ahem... about selections, take the time and do it with the poligonal lazo tool in photoshop (or similar tools depending the software) is a slow process but in the long run is a great time saver.
I will explain it better when I have the black and white image. :attention:

 

[Sakunyuusha]

Of course I have the original in B&W. These are all from hentai doujinshi and manga.

Unfortunately, the original scan wasn't the best of qualities. Some bleeding through from the reverse page, and a lot of midtone grays.

 

[techie]

SdEo.. do you have any of those old body style pictures by chance.
I have been looking for them like crazy.

You know where you see the person from various angles, non coloured of course.
(Coloured works fine as well)

I think they used to call them "study" of various body styles and outlines.
That could be a good example for Sakunyuusha to work with as well to get a handle on the tools.

Thanks

 

[SdeO]

like this?

there are some here:
http://www.catsuka.com/gengal.php
others in better resolution:
http://moe.imouto.org/post/index?tags=character_design
and these are ice, from the Noir anime:
http://www.projectnoir.com/gallery/model-sheets01.shtml

 

[SdeO]

Ok, back to the business erfectplan:

I'm gonna use photoshop but you can do the same virtually in any other 2d software
(I recommend photoshop, anyway :XD

this is our first goal:

horrible flat colors! but, it's just halfway to the finish line, in the end, gonna look good, hopefully.

(Damn, I'm getting the FastCgi error at the moment, I have to be as concise as possible)

the steps are pretty simple:
1. Open the image in photoshop. You didn't expect that, did you? LOL
2. Adjust brightness and contrast to clean up the image a bit.
3. Duplicate the background layer (in the main menu: Layer>Duplicate layer or ctrl+j)
4. Delete the original layer, just keep the new layer you create. From now on, I'm gonna call this one the "line art" layer.
5. This is a important step. In the layers palette, change the layer mode from normal to multiply. This way the white pixels become transparent, and you can color on layers underneath the line art.
6. Make a new layer below your line art, you need to drag the layer with the mouse in the layers palette.
7. Now the selections. (Honestly, forget any hopes of having some shortcut for this, just accept the awful true: you need to do it manually.
With practice you will do it very quickly, so don't worry.)
With the lasso tool, select the skin of the girl, and fill the selection with any color, you can adjust it later.
8. Deselect, and in the layer palette check lock transparency:

now, you don't have to worry about staying within the lines when you actually color the skin. HERE is a better explanation of how this works.
9. Repeat steps 7 and 8 for every section of the image, hair, clothes, etc. and that's all!

Of course all this is just the beginning, how far you want to go in the next stages it's up to you.

I make this like a quick example:

I'm not very happy with this image, though, is too shiny, but those awful screentones are in the way.

Also, I upload to rapidshare the psd file for a better look of how I arrange the layers:
http://rapidshare.com/files/236820558/flat_colors.psd.html

feel free to ask any questions about this.

 

[Sakunyuusha]

"That is FUCKING AMAZING! ... Oh my God."

That was what I literally just blurted out loud when I saw your finished product.

Oh, milord! Take me for your vassal, such that I may learn the ways of the PhotoShop from you! o_o

*cough* where can one procure PhotoShop without being caught? >_>

 

[Sakunyuusha]

Note: in GIMP, it looks like your advice about dragging the superficial layers underneath the original base layer is wrong. It causes me to alter too many unspecified parameters to try to get things to work the way you describe later on, but if I leave the layers on top of the "line art" layer and set them to Multiply, then it seems to work just fine. Let me know if you know more about this.

Second note: damn it, once I actually did what you recommended, I realized ... this is not all that different than what I have been doing! o_o; Here is the quick comparison:

SdeO's way:
1. While the "hair" layer is what you've selected but while you can still see the underlying "line art" layer, lasso the girl's hair. This takes patience!
2. Once you finish lassoing her hair, paint the selection any color.
3. After you do that, deselect the lasso and tell the "hair" layer to lock on to what's currently transparent and what's not, so that it only will let you paint over what wasn't transparent.

Sakunyuusha's Way:
1. Lasso the hair on the "line art" layer. This takes patience!
2. Copy and paste it to the "hair" layer.
3. After you do that, use the Multiply paintbrush tool (not the Multiply layer!) to paint the hair without completely painting over the shading and the lines. Voila!


I like your way better because it means I can be more brutal to the colors (i.e. manipulate them more often) without running the risk of introducing grain and other artifacts to the selections (which is something my method ran the risk of).

I also like your way better because it means that if I want to edit multiple images (which is the ultimate goal!) it should be very easy for me now to color sample the original color from one image-editing file and use it in a second, third, fourth, etc. (For example, if I get the perfect hair color, there's no longer any reason to worry about the hair color having been rendered too dark by shadowing, or too orange by firelight, or too dark by getting wet with water, etc.)

But other than that, our methods are very similar in theory and that means ... your tips won't end up saving me much time after all. ;_; My major loss of time right now is to the image selection part (the lassoing). And you said, "Tough, kid. It sucks. Believe, I know. But you'll get better at it with practice, honest!" So here's what I'd like to know: how quickly (scout's honor) did it take you to do what you did? Don't exaggerate or lie because it won't help me any. Tell me the honest truth, best guess. 10 minutes? 1 hour? Several hours? An entire afternoon and evening? 'Cause to do what you did there would currently take me 3-5 hours, but most of that time (90 to 95% of it) is spent lassoing. The fun part -- the coloring -- only takes between 15 and 30 minutes max.

 

[techie]

1. Open the image in photoshop. You didn't expect that, did you? LOL

Ok.. you lost me here...


:XD:

Just kidding...

Great assistance SdeO
Nice example too...

And thanks for the links to the linearts/studies

 

[Sakunyuusha]

Okay, I think I'm ready to ask for the next tip. How did you achieve the great lighting and darkening effects in your picture that make it look so much like a professionally-colored Western comic? What I mean is ... I'm able to get the right hue for things, but I'm having trouble achieving (in an efficient manner) the manner in which you shaded the edges of her arms, shaded the lower portions of her hair, and shaded the infoldings of her dress. You also shaded her neck really well. I'm wondering if you have any specific tips/clues for how to do this, or is it as bad as I'm imagining: "lasso the areas you want to shade, get a gray paint brush, put it on Multiply, and have at." >_<

 

[SdeO]

if I leave the layers on top of the "line art" layer and set them to Multiply, then it seems to work just fine.

it's pretty much the same thing, the advantage of having the line art above the rest of the layers is that you can be more sloppy with the selections, in others words, is faster!

how quickly (scout's honor) did it take you to do what you did? Don't exaggerate or lie because it won't help me any.

this pic is very simple, take me like 30 min from start to finish, the actual lassoing take like 10 min, probably less. In a more complicated image, be prepared to spend many, many hours, though. But seriously, there's no need to rush, we're having fun, the important thing is the final result, not how quickly we did it. Impatience is our worst enemy.

Okay, I think I'm ready to ask for the next tip. How did you achieve the great lighting and darkening effects in your picture that make it look so much like a professionally-colored Western comic? What I mean is ... I'm able to get the right hue for things, but I'm having trouble achieving (in an efficient manner) the manner in which you shaded the edges of her arms, shaded the lower portions of her hair, and shaded the infoldings of her dress. You also shaded her neck really well. I'm wondering if you have any specific tips/clues for how to do this, or is it as bad as I'm imagining: "lasso the areas you want to shade, get a gray paint brush, put it on Multiply, and have at." >_<

for the actual coloring, I only use the brush tool, but never in multiply mode, I just pick a darker color to paint shadows, in this particular pic, I also use the dodge tool for highlights. At the end I flatten all the layers, apply a light blur and adjust the brightness and contrast of the whole picture. Make a new paint over and I'll give you more specific tips about the coloring part.
-----------------------


I'm attaching a pic that can help you when choose colors, just be aware that color is a relative thing, a skin tone for example, looks totally different depending of the environment or surrounding colors!

I'm looking forward to see your new artwork. erfectplan:

 

[Sakunyuusha]

I really want to follow your advice, so I'm starting over with a fresh picture and going to try to be patient and tackle one thing at a time.

So ... first ... load up the first attachment and respond to my post (which is in the image for easier viewing on your end. ^^; )

 

[Sakunyuusha]

It's taken me 2 to 3 hours to get this much (or rather, this little) done. No idea how you do it in 30 minutes. My right hand is cramped from overuse of the mouse. >_<