Japan protests US military base

[ekop]

I agree to previous posts that the US did their last positive intervention(s) in WWII. But since then they failed (the military as well as their agencies).

Just find this serious thread and just want to tell you a little bit about least known side of WWII.

Here in Indonesia before the Japanese came at 1943 for hundreds of years we're divided and enslaved under various western colonial forces.

To make story short the Japanese army came here, crushed all western forces and form 防衛郷土義勇軍 (kyoudo bouei giyuugun) or pembela tanah air (PETA) or defender of homeland in English which is now they're called Indonesia National Army. Even though they here for just around 2-3 years aside from giving us weapon and military training they also taught us a lot of things ... even now if you ask any Indonesian for vowel they will answer with Japanese sequence a i u e o.

After Japanese unconditional surrender Japanese forces here divided into three groups ... one group go home to Japan, second group pickup their weapon for last time just to die on battle field and last group decided to stay and fight for us. A few years back you still can find Japanese WWII survivor in Indonesia who fight along side us.
O yeah even though for most people WWII ended with Japanese surrender we still have to fight trough 50s because allied forces came back here to take our land ... they even gave us ultimatum to dissolve PETA or they will deemed us as collaborator of war.

Any atrocities done by the nazi in Europe also done by the allied forces here.
If Europe liberated by allied forces the Japanese help us free our self from allied forces.

 

[Elldallan]

Any atrocities done by the nazi in Europe also done by the allied forces here.
If Europe liberated by allied forces the Japanese help us free our self from allied forces.

As they say winners write history. I know Brittish colonial rule was harsh, but ethnic cleansing? Especially post WWII?
But yeah, the allied committed atrocities that were swiped under the rug, the fire bombings of German cities(deliberately targeting civilians), Soviet Gulags(which isn't as well known and have recieved a lot less attention than the Nazi concentration camps), the nukes(again deliberately targeting civilians), The US Japanese internment camps etc. If any of these had been committed by Axis forces there'd surely been executions for them after the war.
In fact the only reason the German unrestricted submarine warfare(which was a crime according to the laws of the high seas at the time) wasn't prosecuted was because US submariners publicly went on oath to testify that they did the exact same thing during the pacific campaign, hence the surviving German submariners couldn't be put on trial unless their US counterparts were, not without appearing like huge hypocrites anyway.

 

[ekop]

As they say winners write history. I know Brittish colonial rule was harsh, but ethnic cleansing? Especially post WWII?

You're right ... I don't think there's any more ethnic cleansing here by allied forces after WWII. If before Japanese came they even can capture or kill our leader in peace talk/meeting after WWII they just broke various treaty and draw first blood ... it usually to take a town or a village by surprise attack.

After Japanese surrender we have lots of weapon and lots of ordinary people also join the fight against allied forces so they can't do what they usually do that easily even if they wanted to. After Japanese allied forces here ended up fighting with all Indonesian people with firearm and slogan "merdeka atau mati" or in English "freedom or death". Like in Vietnam you just can't win fighting with whole nation like that ... not without astronomical body count on both sides.

 

[Ceewan]

Any atrocities done by the nazi in Europe also done by the allied forces here.
If Europe liberated by allied forces the Japanese help us free our self from allied forces.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa.

To say you don't know what you are talking about would be an understatement, are you even from Indonesia? These are the Japanese of WWII:

http://listverse.com/2014/05/06/10-japanese-atrocities-from-world-war-ii/


There are a lot of things I like about the Japanese but in WWII they were ruthless, heartless and vindictive. Liberators they were not and only a Troll would say something like that. Nobody conquered by Japan was "thankful". The Indonesians were one of the lead nations participating during the war crime trials of the Japanese.

In one of the ugliest trials in the Dutch East Indies a court condemned to death Vice Admiral Michiaki Kamada, who had directed the execution of some 1,500 natives of Borneo. Another four Japanese died for brutality and murder committed on 2,000 Dutch prisoners on Flores Island. Another case involved the death 'through maltreatment' of 5,000 Indonesian forced laborers, 500 Allied prisoners and 1,000 civilians.

source:
http://www.historynet.com/japanese-war-crime-trials.htm

beginning with Indonesia (Dutch East Indies, at the time). How many Indonesian forced laborers were actually conscripted by the Japanese is unknown. Estimates run as high as 1,500,000 (line 110a); even more speculative is the death toll. This varies in the sources from 200,000 to 1,430,000 deaths, with perhaps the most likely figure being 300,000 (the figure "accepted" by the United Nations--line 114).

source:
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM


I got nothing against the Japanese, they did what they did and they were who they were. War is an ugly thing, no denying it. I am even open to a little revisionist history from time to time. But you just can't wish that history is different than what it was. So take that crap your selling elsewhere Troll (not to mention that was over 70 years ago and you obviously weren't there). I swear, you can't have a decent conversation on the net without someone screwing it up with a bunch of idiocy.

 

[ekop]

I'am from Indonesia ... kalo mo sy post pake bahasa Indonesia juga bisa tapi yg laen bakal ga ngerti

Japanese also do some crime here ... the most well known Japanese crime and considered most heinous here are organizing 従軍慰安婦 (comfort women) from local women. There also force labor enforced by Japanese to help building defenses but that's understandably because we're at war ... if don't hurry the enemy may defeat you. It's not like when colonial forces make 1000km road in 1 year with force labor here which cost around 12.000 Indonesian lives ... a road so that western people here can get their mail faster.

Here's the fact according to Indonesia point of view:
1. Before WWII Indonesia divided under various western colonial forces.
2. Japanese came, crush allied forces and form 防衛郷土義勇軍 (kyoudo bouei giyuugun) or pembela tanah air (PETA) or defender of homeland in English which is now they're called TNI (Tentara Nasional Indonesia - Indonesia National Army).
3. Japanese surrender and allied forces start to invade again from Singapore, Malaysia and Philippine.
4. Even after WWII over we're still fighting against allied forces.
This is what you'll find if you read Indonesian history book from elementary to high school and I don't really know what they write about it there. As Elldallan say winners write history.

Are you trying to say that allied forces absolutely doesn't have any evil intention when they come here before or after Japanese surrender?

 

[Ceewan]

I like how you speak for the whole of the Indonesian people., which you shouldn't because you are full of inaccuracies.

To begin with the Dutch are not "the allied forces" or "western colonial forces" they are the Dutch. Sure, they were unneccessarily cruel but in the end it was they that made Indonesia, it never would have become a country without them. It was the people of Indonesia pulling together to fight for their freedom against Dutch rule that gave them a chance for liberty. Maybe one day they will find it, they sure don't have it now.

Indonesia has a lot of problems. I don't pretend to be an expert in those problems but there are plenty of Indonesian Americans who prefer the government here to the current one (congrats on your new President!) over there. While I am not a personal fan of the Islamic belief that belief, like others, is respected here. I am a fan of religious freedom and a fan of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is a bit iffy in Indonesia. Poverty runs rampant, even though it is one of the wealthest countries in the world ( in the top twenty I believe in Gross National Product). They hold public executions in Indonesia, even of foreign citizens (which has not made them many friends with other countries). Piracy, and I mean actual High Seas Jolly Roger Piracy runs rampant and is a serious problem that the Indonesian Government has been unable to fix.

Look, I am happy that Indonesia won their freedom from the Dutch, really I am. The Indonesian people need to work together to develop a form of government that respects the rights and freedoms of its' citizens and not only looks out for their welfare but is able to form and keep good diplomatic relations with its' neighboring countries. Foreign countries aren't evil, they are investors. They are jobs. Making Indonesia attractive to corporations from overseas is just good sense. Promoting competition between businesses and helping small business flourish should be a priorty to developing a good economy there. Indonesia has a serious problem with corruption and that is another low point because how can the government there improve anything if they do not have the trust of their people.

Yeah, I know the Dutch were cruel and horrible to the Indonesian people. Well the British weren't all that great to us before we were a country either. Comparing the allied forces to the Nazis however, was stupid. The Nazis ate the Dutch for breakfast and they were still hungry. So get off your pedestal and get on topic or get lost. Your country is not so much better than any other nor is your history so much more horrid than all others.

Try talking about the history of Okinawa and how it applies to their recent problems there. Did you know that in the Battle of Okinawa in WWII that over one-third of their population was killed? And the vast majority that died did not die from British planes or American guns but by suicide. Find that hard to believe? Me too, but it is what it is. Now that is a sad story.

 

[ekop]

My history full of inaccuracies maybe because unfortunately/luckily we gain independence by fighting and when we try documenting history we don't got any interferences from outside country ... we may read book with the same tittle but the content slightly different.

About term "allied forces" I'm using it because it really "allied forces". You can check your map and see Indonesia is surrounded by commonwealth like Malaysia, Australia, Singapore, Brunei, New Guinea and Philippine back then run by US. After WWII MacArthur may never set his foot in Indonesia but he's allowed and helped British forces to invade us all over again. MacArthur back then is the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers Southwest Pacific Area ... if he doesn't allowed the invasion like he's not allowed Russian forces to enter Japan WWII for us will also end at Japanese surrender.

About my comparison to nazi aside because of the same WWII timeline it because they operate based on racial hatred like the nazi. If you look at photos or videos from WWII Europe you can see racial writing like "achtung juden" or alike ... in Indonesia back then you'll see writing like "dogs and native people not allowed here" or alike. Back then when allied forces including US attack Japanese forces here they're not to liberate any people from oppression ... they just want to liberate western people here so that they can rule the land again. I think back then they don't even considered us as human.

About the Japanese although they're also commit some crime here all their action mainly for their war effort and not because they hate us racially.

Are you from US? I'm saying this just for saying the truth and not to try to desecrate your grandfather legacy ... in my opinion soldier wise both sides have fought bravely. I know lots of western people who's so sensitive and got offended easily when they see nazi symbol like swastika because they say it represent racism, fascism or the greatest crime human ever made and they have no idea that allied forces here do the same thing for the same reason.

 

[Ceewan]

While this discussion with you is actually beginning to get fun, you are again off-topic. You are being rude to the person who started this thread and those who wish to discourse on that subject. You want to talk about Indonesia instead of the protests in Okinawa then start your own thread. Thank you.

 

[ShogunXXX]

"You are being rude to the person who started this thread", no, I enjoy serious topics It's normal it goes on other matters because a lot of things are interrelated. Keep on, but without starting WWIII

 

[Ceewan]

"You are being rude to the person who started this thread", no, I enjoy serious topics It's normal it goes on other matters because a lot of things are interrelated. Keep on, but without starting WWIII

Not every poster feels that way, I wouldn't. Besides, you've been so quite I felt like we were monopolizing the thread (which we were). People don't always enjoy that.

Anyway, where to begin:
The statement about America in the Phillipines is misleading. America acquired the Phillipines as a territory in 1898 during the Spanish-American War. Our war was against Spain, not the indigeneous people of the Phillipines. America did me proud by working towards the Phillipines being self-governed and had already made a deal with them in 1934 that they would be granted independence in 10 years. Japan had other plans.

Australia was also a part of the allied forces and how you can group them and the US in with the British, Dutch, French, Portuguese and Spanish Imperialist period that started in the 17th century is beyond me as both countries were actually settled and founded during that period....many countries were. So try to keep that in mind.

I have actually heard about Indonesias' appeal to the US for help gaining there own sovereignity but do you know what? Fidel Castro also appealed to the USA for help before his revolution. Finding America guilty just because of apathy or inaction to ones cause is pretty lame. The fight in the Pacific was not a direct response to Japans' invasion of China or anywhere else. We went to war because Japan started it with the bombing of Pearl Harbor and it pretty much finished with us when they surrendered.

If there was any sympathy for Danish interests in Indonesia with the American public it was due to ignorance about how the Indonesians were treated, the fact that we had more Danish immigrants than Indonesian immigrants, and our basic sympathy for the plight of the Jewish people during the War in Europe of which quite a few were from Denmark. Yet politcally we had little in common with the Dutch and they were often our rivals in foreign business affairs. Not only did both Australia and the US verbally support the Indonesian Revolutionists in the UN but America was the very first to recognize Indonesia as a sovereign state.

As far as the Japaneses' intentions when they handed over their weapons to the Indonesians....well, you believe what you want there but I highly doubt myself that they were looking to do anyone any favors at that point. Nor will I bother sticking up for the British here, not my place nor would I be inclined towards doing so if it were, let someone else do that if they want.