Japan's Warring States Period 戦国時代 Sengoku jidai

[01AKUser10]

Care to discuss it?

Favorite Daimyo('s)
Favorite battles
Battle strategy/tactics
Political intrigue

What would have happened if Oda Nobunaga escaped Honno-ji temple?
Was Usuegi Kenshin the periods greatest warrior?

 

[Ceewan]

I actually know very little about the era, considering how much there is to know about it. I don't think there is much doubt that Oda Nobunaga was one of the greatest leaders in history but he wasn't the most diplomatic of personas' either. I think betrayal of one sort or another was just in the cards for him. Inspirational as he was, he was akin to a "Bull in a China Shop" and was bound to make enemies.


Favorite Battle: Battle of Okehazama (Odas' rise to power as he challenged an army of around 40,000 with less than 3,000.....and won).

Greatest Samurai (maybe ever): Honda Tadakatsu "The Warrior who surpassed Death itself"

 

[01AKUser10]

I actually know very little about the era, considering how much there is to know about it. I don't think there is much doubt that Oda Nobunaga was one of the greatest leaders in history but he wasn't the most diplomatic of personas' either. I think betrayal of one sort or another was just in the cards for him. Inspirational as he was, he was akin to a "Bull in a China Shop" and was bound to make enemies.


Favorite Battle: Battle of Okehazama (Odas' rise to power as he challenged an army of around 40,000 with less than 3,000.....and won).

Greatest Samurai (maybe ever): Honda Tadakatsu "The Warrior who surpassed Death itself"

History is replete with victories like that, I think this victory was a combination of factors.
1. Fortune favors the bold
2 "All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu
3. The Imagawa force were either complacent or underestimated Oda.

Another great samurai was Kamiizumi Nobutsuna.

 

[01AKUser10]

Perhaps the largest battle of the entire period took place at the battle of Tedorgawa 手取川の戦い in November, 1577.
Uesugi Kenshin battled Oda and his two greatest generals at the Tedori river. Uesugi soundly defeated Oda using deception and the river to his advantage, rendering Oda's gun's and cannons useless.

 

[Ceewan]

History is replete with victories like that, I think this victory was a combination of factors.
1. Fortune favors the bold
2 "All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu
3. The Imagawa force were either complacent or underestimated Oda.

Another great samurai was Kamiizumi Nobutsuna.

I wouldn't exactly say that those types of victories are exactly common. I am a big Napoleon fan and with all his victories, many against superior odds, I cannot think of one where the odds were stacked quite that far. But that argument is academic.

"Fortune favors the bold" is a nice quote. That is good for another tale, one of the infamous American Civil War hero.....General Custer. Custer played a pivotal yet relatively unknown role in the Unions victory at Gettysburg, the turning point of the Civil war. Custer met Stuart and was repulsed with heavy casualties, outnumbered against almost hopeless odds Custer regrouped the remnants of his force and orderd a charge straight into the enemy ranks. This very insane and unexpected tactic convinced Stuart that Custer was heavily reinforced and they withdrew. Stuarts job had been to attack the rear flank of the Union Army in support of Picketts' Charge and his absence doomed Pickett to devasting losses the South would never recover from. Custer was a lot of things but a coward was not one of them.

Never heard of Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, I will have to look him up. I am a bit of an amateur military historian but there are some considerable gaps in knowledge....man has warred since he has walked on this Earth and has not stopped since.

 

[01AKUser10]

I wouldn't exactly say that those types of victories are exactly common. I am a big Napoleon fan and with all his victories, many against superior odds, I cannot think of one where the odds were stacked quite that far. But that argument is academic.

Not sure if your familiar with the Three Kingdoms period of China, but one of my favorite examples would be this:
The empty fort ruse!

 

[Ceewan]

I am familar with the Three Kingdoms period, the Fall of the Han Dynasty. I have been trying to find a decent copy of the book (the official history) that I could afford. Still, as revered as this is in China keep in mind that this dates back over 1800 years (The Romance of the Three Kingdoms actually starts the story around 169 AD) and history that old is always somewhat suspect because of a lack of collaborating sources. This does not mean that much of the original text is false only that some of it may have been romanticized and stray from the cold hard objective facts historians tend to adore. It is also important to note that the author of the The Romance of the Three Kingdoms wasn't even born until well over a 1000 years after the fact.

Zhuge Liang was no doubt a huge influence in those times however and assuredly earned his legendary status.

 

[01AKUser10]

I am familar with the Three Kingdoms period, the Fall of the Han Dynasty. I have been trying to find a decent copy of the book (the official history) that I could afford. Still, as revered as this is in China keep in mind that this dates back over 1800 years (The Romance of the Three Kingdoms actually starts the story around 169 AD) and history that old is always somewhat suspect because of a lack of collaborating sources. This does not mean that much of the original text is false only that some of it may have been romanticized and stray from the cold hard objective facts historians tend to adore. It is also important to note that the author of the The Romance of the Three Kingdoms wasn't even born until well over a 1000 years after the fact.

Zhuge Liang was no doubt a huge influence in those times however and assuredly earned his legendary status.

Agreed, in fact some learned academics suspect the work may be approximately 30% fabrication and that there may have been multiple contributing authors throughout time. I am sure you can find an official version in digital format for free online. I always like to ask people what they think would have happened if Zhuge Liang had not died so young. I am of the opinion he would have unified the country. I think he was the true hero of the period.

"A wise man wins before fighting, while the ignorant man must fight to win." - Zhuge Liang

 

[01AKUser10]

Here's a good movie about the famous battles between Uesugi Kenshin & Takeda Shingen. These two had a fierce yet honorable rivalry, even exchanging gifts. At one time, the Takeda clan had a shortage of rice and salt in the Kai provence, so Kenshin sent a supply of salt to Kai. Later Kenshin commented "Wars are to be won with swords and spears, not with rice and salt."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4AV_Gv_59k

 

[WillEater]

I watched History Channel yesterday, "Assassin's", regaling tales of the Ninjas, the Ronin, and so on.. Interesting..

 

[Ceewan]

I watched History Channel yesterday, "Assassin's", regaling tales of the Ninjas, the Ronin, and so on.. Interesting..

without having seen it, probably irresponsible of me to comment on it. however, I have a low opinion on the history channel as a good source of history in general. they constantly seem to either sensationalize a topic at the expense of objective or pertinent information and "compartmentalize" history into a narrow viewpoint in order to make it "better cinema". always try to take into account that there is as much or more left unsaid on anything you watch on that channel.

I do enjoy the tv show "Vikings" though (and they even try to keep somewhat historical). You also might be interested in "The Tale of the 47 Ronin" which is actually based on historical events. There has been some good cinema based on it.

http://www.samurai-archives.com/ronin.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-seven_Ronin

 

[WillEater]

You also might be interested in "The Tale of the 47 Ronin" which is actually based on historical events.

Yes, that was one of the episodes.. The 47..

 

[01AKUser10]

I watched History Channel yesterday, "Assassin's", regaling tales of the Ninjas, the Ronin, and so on.. Interesting..

No doubt they mentioned arguably the most famous ninja, Hattori Hanzo. It has been speculated that it was not just one man, but several men who assumed his name. Most ninja were spies, not nessecarily combatants and assassins. Tho some did excel at both roles. Let us not forget the the Kunoichi, or female ninja. Geisha made very effective ninjas. There was a notable battle between Oda's son and the Iga ninja clan, and Oda's son (not sure which one, i think it was Nobukatsu) was sorely defeated. Later Oda himself led an overwhelming force to the Iga province, and eliminated the population in revenge.

I do enjoy the tv show "Vikings" though (and they even try to keep somewhat historical). You also might be interested in "The Tale of the 47 Ronin" which is actually based on historical events. There has been some good cinema based on it.

Yeah, looking forward to the new season of Vikings, one aspect of the norse culture the series has not yet presented is the "Beserker".

 

[Ceewan]

For real fun and a hilarious take on the Sengoku Jidai playing "Sengoku Rance" is a must (unless you despise Rance games of course, some people do). It was made by Alicesoft and so popular that a fantranslation was done....which must of amounted to tons of work. Alicesoft only does games in Japanese and as far as I know they don't distribute outside of Japan. The game is cheap though, so you might be able to get a copy (maybe through someone like desioner) or you can find an English version via torrent (should be one here, if not I can post one). Loved that game, though I haven't put it on my newest PC yet. It isn't voiced but there is plenty of hentai action in it....(Rance is a serious pervert) and it is actually a pretty good strategy game (the other Rance games are RPGs). You would crack up what they do with some of the personalities of the time period, like Hattori Hanzo.

Yeah, looking forward to the new season of Vikings, one aspect of the norse culture the series has not yet presented is the "Beserker".

Kinda think they might have, Ragnars brother for one. The action scenes are some of the best on tv, up there with Game of Thrones (without the budget) and the first season of Spartacus (without the nudity). I won't mention the other seasons because the series really started to suck when the lead actor died and they cast that other actor (not his fault, the writing really went from brilliant to stupid in record time).

 

[01AKUser10]

Kinda think they might have, Ragnars brother for one. The action scenes are some of the best on tv, up there with Game of Thrones (without the budget) and the first season of Spartacus (without the nudity). I won't mention the other seasons because the series really started to suck when the lead actor died and they cast that other actor (not his fault, the writing really went from brilliant to stupid in record time).

What do you think about Rolo becoming a Frankish noble?

 

[Ceewan]

That is actually, although I am not sure about historically, what happened. The Franks bought off the Vikings and made them protectors, giving them Normandy. William the Conqueror was of Viking descent (said to be a direct descendant of Rollo actually). I like history but I don't claim to be an expert. It is more of a hobby.

So on a personal note, I share Ragnars' anger. Cinematically it makes for a good story. The history channel has taken some liberties with the show, they had to as Ragnar Lothbrok is more legend than written history. Rollo of history is completely different and how they decided to make him Ragnars' brother is something you would have to ask the writers. Their time periods due overlap somewhat I suppose.....in places.

 

[01AKUser10]

Obviously not Warring States period, but I thought these would fit nicely in this thread.