The Things We Do for JAV
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Casshern2,
You're right, I have not seen this technique yet used on any JAV. To be honest I had never even encountered this idea in video editing before. I managed to find that "spirton" page resource on my own, and even attempted to install the apps and recreate the process, but something got hung up along the way, even though I followed the instructions to the letter. One of the programs is having problems updating, which I confirmed on other forums is a persistent problem lately, so perhaps that was what went wrong. Working with scripts I have always found to be tricky, though to be honest.
Sure, I would be willing to check out any examples you could post. I suppose something ideal would be a fast-moving scene, perhaps a medium-closeup of an actress bouncing up and down like crazy in cowgirl position? That type of scene usually winds up stressing the framerates of cameras, heh.
As a side note, however, I looked very carefully at that"sample" posted on the spirton page - the one with the two guys waling in the tow truck show scene? I have a few things to say about that. First of all, there's not really much motion in that scene - just two guys walking against a fairly static background - so it's not really a great example of such a technique in action, IMO. Although I do see how it looks "smoother".
Also, it looks like the re-encode might have been done at a super-high quality setting - to avoid artifacts and to make it look as good as possible. That might be fine for a 30 second clip, or maybe even a 22 minute show, but when we're talking about 2-4 hour videos, it becomes a lot more problematic and not so cut and dried, I'd think.
Finally, I really could find very little talk about this on the net, in spite of the fact that the spirton page was first posted six years ago, so this idea has been around at least that long. The little bit that I did find discussing it, had most people taking a cautious or even dismissive view of it, with lots of discussions about artifacts in the re-encodes, etc.
As well, I found some talk about programs that do such framerate-doubling on the fly (and it is doubling, I mean, I don't know why you need to be so shy about using that term, just count the frames - they're doubled, right?). It didn't really impress me, and my system is powerful enough to make it work right.
I dunno, 30 fps is pretty fast, and it's not like we're all sitting around complaining about how jerky our porn is - unlike, say, sex cams, which could certainly make good use of this technology, I think!
You're right, I have not seen this technique yet used on any JAV. To be honest I had never even encountered this idea in video editing before. I managed to find that "spirton" page resource on my own, and even attempted to install the apps and recreate the process, but something got hung up along the way, even though I followed the instructions to the letter. One of the programs is having problems updating, which I confirmed on other forums is a persistent problem lately, so perhaps that was what went wrong. Working with scripts I have always found to be tricky, though to be honest.
Sure, I would be willing to check out any examples you could post. I suppose something ideal would be a fast-moving scene, perhaps a medium-closeup of an actress bouncing up and down like crazy in cowgirl position? That type of scene usually winds up stressing the framerates of cameras, heh.
As a side note, however, I looked very carefully at that"sample" posted on the spirton page - the one with the two guys waling in the tow truck show scene? I have a few things to say about that. First of all, there's not really much motion in that scene - just two guys walking against a fairly static background - so it's not really a great example of such a technique in action, IMO. Although I do see how it looks "smoother".
Also, it looks like the re-encode might have been done at a super-high quality setting - to avoid artifacts and to make it look as good as possible. That might be fine for a 30 second clip, or maybe even a 22 minute show, but when we're talking about 2-4 hour videos, it becomes a lot more problematic and not so cut and dried, I'd think.
Finally, I really could find very little talk about this on the net, in spite of the fact that the spirton page was first posted six years ago, so this idea has been around at least that long. The little bit that I did find discussing it, had most people taking a cautious or even dismissive view of it, with lots of discussions about artifacts in the re-encodes, etc.
As well, I found some talk about programs that do such framerate-doubling on the fly (and it is doubling, I mean, I don't know why you need to be so shy about using that term, just count the frames - they're doubled, right?). It didn't really impress me, and my system is powerful enough to make it work right.
I dunno, 30 fps is pretty fast, and it's not like we're all sitting around complaining about how jerky our porn is - unlike, say, sex cams, which could certainly make good use of this technology, I think!
My friend, I’ll see if I can find a clip like that for you in my library. I’ll try to find one that also happens to have some oil or other shy things going on, that’s where this stuff really shines (no pun intended). It almost looks like you’re watching through a window in a very vivid way. Hard to explain, and it might be only my eyes to perceive what I can’t describe (if that makes sense). I’ll try to find something good quality. Even today’s HD fare sometimes has blurring and ghosting in their scenes.
I had issues as well with Codec packs and MeGUI versions. I eventually uninstalled all of those and started fresh with versions that didn’t seem to have a problem. I really only use those tools for JAV, and it has been quite a while since I bothered, but even when I do to see how things look, I keep telling MeGUI I don’t care about any updates available. If I update I’m sure it will stop working for me.
The spirton site used to have a scene from Avatar as the sample. I guess I haven’t been there in a while. I’ll have to look at what they have now.
The reason I hesitate to use the world “doubling” is because to me a double is a duplicate. To me frame doubling would yield Frame1-Frame1-Frame2-Frame2-Frame3-Frame3, etc.. But the script is actually using Frame1 and Frame2 to create Frame1.5. Remember, the video stream is digital. Nothing but 1s and 0s. A new frame that never existed is being created. For example, if you have two consecutive traditional animation cells from a classic Disney movie. It is entirely possible to hire a new animator to take two consecutive frames and take the time (a very long time, I’m sure!) to create the frame that could go between the two. Like my example of a ball on both sides of the screen in two consecutive frames and the script creating the third frame where the ball is in the center.
True, there are plenty out there that are not impressed with this process. Some even say they don’t see the difference. It is very possible that it depends on the individual’s vision. I perceive it.
About quality, here is what I do. You’re absolutely right about things getting heavy by upping the quality. So, if I have video with an overall bitrate of 2000Kbps, I use the MeGUI profiler to set the constant bitrate at 2000Kbps. When I encode I ignore the audio so that the full 2000 is dedicated to the video stream. The intermediate frames being created does increase the file size at that point (but like I said I’ve never seen it double the size). Then, of course, when I mux the original audio back into the MKV container with the video stream the file size increases again with whatever size the audio stream is. With the golden rule of garbage in / garbage out, sometimes 60fps can’t save a title.
Stay tuned. It’s been a bear at work, but I’ll try to get a few samples before the weekend.
I had issues as well with Codec packs and MeGUI versions. I eventually uninstalled all of those and started fresh with versions that didn’t seem to have a problem. I really only use those tools for JAV, and it has been quite a while since I bothered, but even when I do to see how things look, I keep telling MeGUI I don’t care about any updates available. If I update I’m sure it will stop working for me.
The spirton site used to have a scene from Avatar as the sample. I guess I haven’t been there in a while. I’ll have to look at what they have now.
The reason I hesitate to use the world “doubling” is because to me a double is a duplicate. To me frame doubling would yield Frame1-Frame1-Frame2-Frame2-Frame3-Frame3, etc.. But the script is actually using Frame1 and Frame2 to create Frame1.5. Remember, the video stream is digital. Nothing but 1s and 0s. A new frame that never existed is being created. For example, if you have two consecutive traditional animation cells from a classic Disney movie. It is entirely possible to hire a new animator to take two consecutive frames and take the time (a very long time, I’m sure!) to create the frame that could go between the two. Like my example of a ball on both sides of the screen in two consecutive frames and the script creating the third frame where the ball is in the center.
True, there are plenty out there that are not impressed with this process. Some even say they don’t see the difference. It is very possible that it depends on the individual’s vision. I perceive it.
About quality, here is what I do. You’re absolutely right about things getting heavy by upping the quality. So, if I have video with an overall bitrate of 2000Kbps, I use the MeGUI profiler to set the constant bitrate at 2000Kbps. When I encode I ignore the audio so that the full 2000 is dedicated to the video stream. The intermediate frames being created does increase the file size at that point (but like I said I’ve never seen it double the size). Then, of course, when I mux the original audio back into the MKV container with the video stream the file size increases again with whatever size the audio stream is. With the golden rule of garbage in / garbage out, sometimes 60fps can’t save a title.
Stay tuned. It’s been a bear at work, but I’ll try to get a few samples before the weekend.
I'm probably hurting my cause using this title but I wanted to do something sooner rather than late in case work bogs me down again. The source is 2000Kbps but from a studio that sometimes has a dull picture. I increased the saturation just a fraction to get a tad more color in it for the 60fps converstion. But, here are two versions of the same 5 minute compilation clip I threw together from DDK-117.
DDK-117_5min_Demo.mkv Same original video stream as how I found the original title. All I did was chop the pieces and mux it all together, no re-encoding at all.
https://mega.nz/#!3U90URpL!zozhjdzIU7zX3oKqckz4VX1UKG7XwxXfEcLCFHAZotM
DDK-117_5min_60fps.mkv - run through the MeGui process found on spirton.
https://mega.nz/#!yUEQjQaJ!meHv8EJmGtuLT2WYKJypRgdfY9fErgbqawrCyeSuj1U
DDK-117_5min_Demo.mkv Same original video stream as how I found the original title. All I did was chop the pieces and mux it all together, no re-encoding at all.
https://mega.nz/#!3U90URpL!zozhjdzIU7zX3oKqckz4VX1UKG7XwxXfEcLCFHAZotM
DDK-117_5min_60fps.mkv - run through the MeGui process found on spirton.
https://mega.nz/#!yUEQjQaJ!meHv8EJmGtuLT2WYKJypRgdfY9fErgbqawrCyeSuj1U
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Thanks for the samples. I do see the slightly "glassy" look that you describe, and the tiniest bit of added fluidity, but overall, I don't see any improvement that would make me want to go out of my way to do this.
I have also seen this referred to in videophile forums as the "soap opera effect" because daytime TV soap operas film on 60fps interlaced video (because it's cheaper), which give them that unique "glassy flat" look, and converting 30fps to 60fps recreates that effect.
Anyway I agree you have educated me on the technique of 60fps conversions, but have not convinced me that it is something worth the effort. I have enough work converting blu rays! Thanks for the convo.
I have also seen this referred to in videophile forums as the "soap opera effect" because daytime TV soap operas film on 60fps interlaced video (because it's cheaper), which give them that unique "glassy flat" look, and converting 30fps to 60fps recreates that effect.
Anyway I agree you have educated me on the technique of 60fps conversions, but have not convinced me that it is something worth the effort. I have enough work converting blu rays! Thanks for the convo.