Mao Hamasaki 浜崎真緒

[ding73ding]

My ambition is to only create threads that has a long life. So let's see if we could sustain interest in single idol threads.

I've been a huge fan of Mao Hamasaki 浜崎真緒. OK she is not even top 5 on the hottest idol ranking. Her face is good looking but not at all eye-popping beautiful. Her figure is very good but just a tiny bit flabby to be consider Goddess.

But what makes me a huge fan is, compare to the hottest idols, she can do anything. Firstly she's in a lot of group vids and group sex scenes. Even making regular releases for Hunter etc in their fake amateur vids. Another thing is she does all the sex acts I can ask of my fav idols, particularly anal sex. Actually amongst the currently-active idols who does anal scenes, I think she's by far the hottest one.

But some of the hard core vids she do... worry me a bit... No she doesn't do anything particularly extreme or revolting, but she perform some scenes with so much intensity, that I honestly worry about her mental state.


In a earlier post I mentioned her crying uncontrollably in a post-shoot behind-the-scene extra. (I will find my old post and link here). This time it's CETD-291, same studio, same stud and possibly the same director/producer. Celeb Friends make these S&M vids that's relatively close to my preference of S&M, but when Mao Hamasaki do them, I kind of cringe. I'm not gonna waste time writing out what I saw (what I think I saw), you just go download the vid and especially watch the behind-the-scene extra at the end.

I went wow, this is the closest I've ever seen of "mindbreak" as in hentai manga. What's going on, is she a bit mental? Is it just acting? Does she willingly go borderline mad to make these scenes? By comparison, Aimi Yoshikawa make similar S&M scenes but her behind-the-scene appearance suggest it's just simple acting for her. Or is it all just a set up, she acts crazy for these behind-the-scene shots as a charade or performance.

Seriously I wish she's faking it, if not, I wouldn't be surprise if one day she have alcohol or drug overdose or slash her own wrist or something. Obviously I hate that to happen. I'd be much happier if she make those S&M/r*** scenes less real but have a long career and long and happy life.

 

[darksider59]

I've been a huge fan of Mao Hamasaki. OK she is not even top 5 on the hottest idol ranking. Her face is good looking but not at all eye-popping beautiful. Her figure is very good but just a tiny bit flabby to be consider Goddess.

Not in Top 5 because they are girls looking too beautiful to be in the business (ex: Rion, Sakura Momo, Mizuki Miru, just to name a few). Still, her face is very unique and makes her attractive (not to mention her lovely boobs).

But what makes me a huge fan is, compare to the hottest idols, she can do anything. Firstly she's in a lot of group vids and group sex scenes. Even making regular releases for Hunter etc in their fake amateur vids. Another thing is she does all the sex acts I can ask of my fav idols, particularly anal sex. Actually amongst the currently-active idols who does anal scenes, I think she's by far the hottest one.

Her Hunter releases are really various, so I think everybody can find something to enjoy. I agree that Mao is one of the prettiest girls doing anal. Nonomiya Misato (my snake tongue girl) did one, and ONLY one, so not sure if it counts or not. Otherwise, with several anal releases in her catalogue, Mao is indeed one of the prettiest girls and more importantly, with a good looking body (Hana Kano's body looks like shit to me). Her only opponent would be Yu Shinoda.

But some of the hard core vids she do... worry me a bit... No she doesn't do anything particularly extreme or revolting, but she perform some scenes with so much intensity, that I honestly worry about her mental state.

In a earlier post I mentioned her crying uncontrollably in a post-shoot behind-the-scene extra. (I will find my old post and link here). This time it's CETD-291, same studio, same stud and possibly the same director/producer. Celeb Friends make these S&M vids that's relatively close to my preference of S&M, but when Mao Hamasaki do them, I kind of cringe. I'm not gonna waste time writing out what I saw (what I think I saw), you just go download the vid and especially watch the behind-the-scene extra at the end.

I went wow, this is the closest I've ever seen of "mindbreak" as in hentai manga. What's going on, is she a bit mental? Is it just acting? Does she willingly go borderline mad to make these scenes? By comparison, Aimi Yoshikawa make similar S&M scenes but her behind-the-scene appearance suggest it's just simple acting for her. Or is it all just a set up, she acts crazy for these behind-the-scene shots as a charade or performance.

Seriously I wish she's faking it, if not, I wouldn't be surprise if one day she have alcohol or drug overdose or slash her own wrist or something. Obviously I hate that to happen. I'd be much happier if she make those S&M/r*** scenes less real but have a long career and long and happy life.

I'm happy that you mention that because it's something I always thought of, and also kinda blocked me to watch her solo movies. It reminds me Miki Sunohara who cries, but I can't remember if it was part of the behind the scene at the end or not.
Mao remind me a bit of Risa Onodera, for whom I'm also curious about her mental condition.

 

[Handsome Pete]

My ambition is to only create threads that has a long life. So let's see if we could sustain interest in single idol threads.

I've been a huge fan of Mao Hamasaki. OK she is not even top 5 on the hottest idol ranking. Her face is good looking but not at all eye-popping beautiful. Her figure is very good but just a tiny bit flabby to be consider Goddess.

But what makes me a huge fan is, compare to the hottest idols, she can do anything. Firstly she's in a lot of group vids and group sex scenes. Even making regular releases for Hunter etc in their fake amateur vids. Another thing is she does all the sex acts I can ask of my fav idols, particularly anal sex. Actually amongst the currently-active idols who does anal scenes, I think she's by far the hottest one.

But some of the hard core vids she do... worry me a bit... No she doesn't do anything particularly extreme or revolting, but she perform some scenes with so much intensity, that I honestly worry about her mental state.

In a earlier post I mentioned her crying uncontrollably in a post-shoot behind-the-scene extra. (I will find my old post and link here). This time it's CETD-291, same studio, same stud and possibly the same director/producer. Celeb Friends make these S&M vids that's relatively close to my preference of S&M, but when Mao Hamasaki do them, I kind of cringe. I'm not gonna waste time writing out what I saw (what I think I saw), you just go download the vid and especially watch the behind-the-scene extra at the end.

I went wow, this is the closest I've ever seen of "mindbreak" as in hentai manga. What's going on, is she a bit mental? Is it just acting? Does she willingly go borderline mad to make these scenes? By comparison, Aimi Yoshikawa make similar S&M scenes but her behind-the-scene appearance suggest it's just simple acting for her. Or is it all just a set up, she acts crazy for these behind-the-scene shots as a charade or performance.

Seriously I wish she's faking it, if not, I wouldn't be surprise if one day she have alcohol or drug overdose or slash her own wrist or something. Obviously I hate that to happen. I'd be much happier if she make those S&M/r*** scenes less real but have a long career and long and happy life.

She's a favorite of mine. I love her intensity in her harder videos, and her anal debut was one of my favorites of the year. I will have to grab CETD-291 and see what that's all about.

 

[ding73ding]

I forgot to mention she can act. She can speak dialog lines.

She can play dumb-and-big-tits (easily taken advantage of) roles perfectly so she's good in shota vids. She can also be a ring leader in both harem and orgy vids. She can be dom also, e.g. BBAN-151 she's a nasty lesbian ass-r**ist on Karin Maizono (?)．She's still playing student roles and of course she's wins at housewife roles. She also pisses and squirts.

Nonomiya Misato (my snake tongue girl) did one, and ONLY one, so not sure if it counts or not.

I'm happy that you mention that because it's something I always thought of, and also kinda blocked me to watch her solo movies.

For the record, I think one single anal vid does count. But almost not... I agree with your doubt. Those AV idols who makes only one anal vid tend to be unserious about it. E.g. Maria Ozawa's only anal vid was totally forgettable.

But she's so happy and positive in so many other vids, she genuinely seems to be very open personality and really enjoy sex and love cocks.

Another factor is, she's been in JAV for 5 solid years. So whatever the truth is with these Celeb Friend vids, my default thinking is she can take care of herself and a survivor in the industry.

 

[Saren]

I never was really interested in her until a while back when I watched her in a VR scene, I was hooked after that. I love how enthusiastic she is and I love her face along with her expressions. She's now easily in my top 5 JAV stars, nothing beats watching her ride me and then she orgasms and starts squirting. Damn I need to watch another scene with her now XD

 

[Handsome Pete]

Just skipped around a bit on CETD-291. It's pretty weird. What's up with the guy whispering to her, and then slapping her, and then she starts hyperventilating for the longest time.

 

[darksider59]

i just hope its all fake . i dont want people to hurt the other just for money or their sex s tastes.

That's also one of the reasons I mostly watch vanilla movies. Staff is always there to help the girl if she needs anything, especially the newcomers.

 

[ding73ding]

i will watched some of her movies .the prestiage brand make me dont trust anything in javmovies. even their screenshot , interview or behind scense.

I am a recent convert too, based on her pix or DVD covers I wasn't very interested. I only warmed up to her because I love group vids and in the category of group vid regulars (which is dominated by second class idols) she's relatively hot, great personality, versatile and very horny.

i just hope its all fake . i dont want people to hurt the other just for money or their sex s tastes.

Now if you won't (or not yet) watch her vids, at least be careful you don't add your preconception to what you read. No one say she's being hurt for money or taste. It's very clear she chooses to make those hardcore vids. The hardcore S&M is maybe 10% of all her vids, so she can certainly survive refusing to do all anal, bondage, r*** etc. And she doesn't go around taking every job available. Esp. the hardcore stuffs she favors certain studios and partners. Specificially the bald guy. She partner with him very frequent both "normal" and hardcore vids. Basically he is her chosen torturer. The same time CETD-291 there's CESD-484 an orgy vid with Mao and bald guy among others. I think there's a scene between the two of them. And I watch them fuck, it's the closest thing to making love in AV. She really really enjoy being fucked by him.

So we are not talking about what's being done to her rather we are discussing what she is or what she does. I don't think any studio or agent or industry is hurting her (however, it's easy to jump to that conclusion if you only see certain scenes, without know all the other vids and scenes).

This thread isn't just about that stuff. I hope to attract all discussion of her here. Even if you aren't fan of her, if you have some comment or question related to her, post it here. When I have time, I will post some covers of her uncredited vids (a lot of Hunter, Switch and Scoop) because normal ways of searching her names won't turn up those and they are important part of her contribution to the world.

 

[ding73ding]

I started getting a few small covers to post here, but wow for November alone she is credited in 25 vids. Sure some are repackaged vid (repackaged scenes) so there's no work there. And many are compilation vids so her work is only one scene but still that's a lot of vids for a month.

Going back to her debut, the website I normally use list 720 vids by her since debut in Auguest 2012. That's not counting her many many uncredited vids. So I was hoping to add a regular feature of this thread is to list her new vids for each month. Forget about that! It's too much work

 

[ding73ding]

Spoiler: placeholder: old profile from S-Cute

(original link)

<dt>名前</dt>
<dd>Mao</dd>
<dt>年齢</dt>
<dd>20歳</dd>
<dt>サイズ</dt>
<dd>B85(E)-W59-H84</dd>
<dt>身長</dt>
<dd>165cm</dd>
<dt>出身地<dt><dd>千葉県</dd>
<dt>趣味<dt><dd>音楽鑑賞・映画鑑賞</dd>

端正な美人顔に愛嬌をプラスした反則的可愛さのMaoちゃんは、更に大きな反則も持ち合わせていました。その大きなオッパイがそれです。どれくらいかと言えば、自分で自分の乳首を余裕で舐めることができるほど...。待ち合わせの公園でチューリップに無邪気に駆け寄るMaoちゃんですが、駆け寄る時に揺れ、屈んでは揺れ、振り向いては揺れ、それはもう花よりオッパイな世界。オッパイは大きいのに、スラっとした健康美が更に胸を強調します。色白肌にキラキラ瞳、ベストオブポニーテール賞をあげたいほど似合うそのヘアスタイル。一緒に歩いていると、すれ違う男たちの視線を集めているのをものすごく感じました。

Q&A:
今一番ほしいものは？
ハワイに行きたいので、飛行機のチケットがほしいです。

もし生まれ変わるなら男？女？
断然、女です。

通信簿によく先生から書かれたことは？
いつも明るい、元気いっぱい。それ以外書かれたことがないかも(笑)

男性の好きなタイプは？
笑顔が素敵で、歯がきれいな人が好きですね。

初恋はいつ？<
小２かな。バレンタイン渡したけど、失恋でした。

弱点ありますか？
首筋が弱いです。

自分のエッチ度は10点中何点？
そこまででもないと思うので、７点くらいかな。

オナニーはする？
普段はあまりしません。

初めてのオナニーはいつ？
中１のときに、女子の間で何故かオナニーブームが来てて。ブームに乗っかった感じです(笑)

初めて勃起したオ○ンチンを見た時の感想は？
かなり驚きました。なにこれ！？って(笑)

こんなところでエッチしちゃったエピソードは？
ベランダでしたことかな。見られてるかもと思うとドキドキでした。

Hのときに男に求めることは？
雰囲気を大事にしてほしいです。

Name: Mao (note: in English)
Age: 20 (at the time of the profile, now she's 24)
Meas: B85(E)-W59-H84
Height: 165 cm
Birthplace: Chiba
Interest: enjoying music and movies

Mao-chan of cuteness, the charm in neat beautiful face, has rude [sexual] manner and also ready for even greater foul (even more raunchy). The tits are big. She can lick her own nipples with herself so much .... Although the meeting of the park is the Mao-chan ran over to the innocence in tulip, shaking when the rush over, crouch shaking [humping], is turned around shaking, her tits than another flower world. Even though the tits are big, the slippery health beauty further emphasizes the chest. Glitter pupil fair skin, the more I want to give the best Award of ponytail suits the hair style. When walking together, I can feel she is attracting the gaze and staring of each passing men.

Q&A:
What is it you want the most now?
I'd like to go to Hawaii, so I'd like a flight ticket.

If you are reborn? Would you like to be a man or woman?
Absolutely a woman.

What was written often by the teacher in the correspondence [evaluation in high school]?
Always bright, full of energy. Other than that it may not have been written (lol)

What type of men do you like?
I like people with a nice smile and beautiful teeth.

When was first love?
Primary grade two. I handed Valentine to a boy but he broke my heart.

Is there a weak point [on your body]?
My neck is weak.

How many points is your degree of etch? [how horny are you]
I think that it is not that far, so about seven points.

Do you masturbate?
I usually do not do it much.

When is the first masturbation?
In middle school 1, somehow the women's masturbation boom came at that age. I felt like I want to ride a boom (lol)

What was your impression of seeing the first erection?
I was quite surprised. what's this! What? (Laugh)

What episode did you get into this place?
I guess it was a balcony. I was excited as I thought it might be seen.

What do you want from a man when you do H [have sex]?
I want the man to take care of the atmosphere.

 

[Lodestar]

Well I agree with a lot of what's been said. I'm also a bit of a fan so I'll help you keep it going.
One recent video I'm thinking about picking up is EIKI-059 - she looks great in those outfits but I'm not a fan of hypnosis.
I also would really like if they released those DVD jacket images - the non-nude ones where she's in her costumes - in larger dimensions so I could admire her.

To refer back to the theme that she's a little more wild than others - I prefer her to take a more dominant role in her JAVs kind of like when she was in PLA-058. It allows her to be more of a show-off in terms of acts & talking which are her best qualities for me. Also not to derail the thread but I hope this series isn't dead. And yeah that rhymed unintentionally and I refuse to apologize or change for it.

I'm also kind of a vanilla porn type of guy as well - not really into hardcore bondage or r***-y themed stuff where she (or anyone) is crying/resisting at first. I don't mind a little resistance like that sudden sex series where it's the men ambushing the women or the PLA series where it's the women ambushing the men but I think that's where I draw my line.

 

[ding73ding]

It's not derailing the thread at all. When you see a few days of silence obviously the mini-topic has been exhausted, but the title of the thread is herself. Not just her hardcore vid or her (real life?) psychology. I thought hard about it and chose a flavorless thread title so to make sure any topic or angle related to her is within-scope.

Indeed I am not familiar with both those vids. EIKI-059, yeah Mao has the body and face to rock most cosplay, except A-cup lolis obviously. Problem with most cosplay vid (as I ranted many times before) that's only cos but no play. Let's say the vid is 100 mins, what I would like if it were cosplay AV, is like 40 mins of non-sex scenes (setup and foreplay), but compared to normal non-sex scenes, in this vid the idols are wearing costumes. If it's written, acted and filmed excellently, I could fap to these clothed or slight nudity scene already. Because these are non-sex scenes enhanced by the cosplay (and my anticipation of full on sex).

But instead of that you usually get only 5 mins of non-sex scenes, and 95 mins of sex scene but with the costume on (mostly). So instead of enhancing a pre-sex scene, the cosplay is getting in the way of the sex scene.

Anyway Mao in costumes is one of her strengths, what other costume/cosplay vid would you recommend?



Actually I do have PLA-058 but forgot about it temporarily. Yeah it's one of the quiet best vids of 2016. Three A-class idols in a reverse-gangbang, reverse-surprise sex vid. I especially enjoy the scene when one stud was (literally) milked dry and Mao wanted more of it, and the stud ran out of the scene and naked Mao was chasing him at first but gave up and sat back down and look at the other girls rather disappointed. The vid was kind of equal opportunity between the three girls, but it seems Mao's is just a tad more horny.

I wonder who else (active) could compared to her on cross all S&M barriers, she does M (sub), she does S (dom) and she does vanilla.

 

[ding73ding]

(repost of my own post)
CESD-339, 376, 388:

These all happens to be some kind of humiliation or S&M theme (piss, rumjob, and anal/DP, for the three vids respectively). And at the end, there were a few minutes (20 minutes for CESD-388) of behind the scenes. Some of these are the performers preparing and rehearsing the talking scenes (boring for most ppl, but I think it's interesting to see them practicing lines, trying different ways to say and emote the lines, or trying different timing. Some are out-takes (helpfully labeled as "NG") mostly due to messed up lines or bursting in laughter (AV plots are known for believability) . One scene was them rehearsing some mildly violent action (thud grabs and pushes Mao around) .

One particularly funny behind-the-scene BTS is:

1. Mao takes a drink of water
2. someone(?) makes a comment about squirting??
3. Mao suddenly gets all upset and complain that she's just thirsty???

I posted the screen shots because it's "subtitled" and I'm really hoping someone is kind enough to translate the text.

Another set of BTS are before-the-scene and/or after-the-scene shots, sometimes even with a "mico-interview". E.g. in CESD-376, in one scene Mao splashed a bladder-ful of urine into the open mouth of a stud (you can see it on the back cover of the vid, so I won't bother with a screen cap), the BTS shows Mao talking to some guy off-camera before the scene (not too sure if it's the director conversing in preparation for the scene, or it's a mini-interview for the benefit of the viewer). And then after the scene we see the half naked Mao laughing (rather embarassedly) and talking and cleaning up the mess. And then remove the lingerie (because it's soiled with her piss) and joked and talked a bit more before (presumably) going to the shower.

A much more intense BTS was the same before/after BTS for the anal/DP vid CESD-388. First there was the after-BTS when the DP scene was finished, she was not at all her normal happy self. Her expression was intense and the director was quizzing her about her feeling after her first ever anal or DP scene (perhaps it's even really her first time having been fucked by a cock in the asshole) and clearly it's not a piece of cake for her. Too bad I don't know Japanese so I can only capture that it was intense and her emotion was complicated, to say the least. This BTS was actually rather long, so after a few minutes she seems to be recovering and was more talkative while one stud untie her rope bondage. So while we get to (if I knew Japanese) to hear some "real" reaction by an AV idol, we get to enjoy the view of her tits.



And then it gets..... the next BTS is right after the final filming session, and right away as she sat up from the filming posture she was already quite upset. As the crew hands her water and tissue paper and she ought to recover, her sobbing become more and more intense. And then as the crew fuss around her (for her) she just broke and down started really crying, with tear rolling down and sobbing and hyperventilation and shaking and everything. WOW this is kinda nuts. Did she get really hurt during the scene. Go back to the scene in the vid (scene 2): it's a mild S&M scene with the male stud fingering her pussy and asshole quite hard and then fucked her in her ass. The scene finished with anal creampie and the camera zooms in her crotch as sperm oozes out of her anus and even some fluid seems to come out her pussy (was it piss??) and she was sobbing and convulsing quite intensely as the camera zoom back on her full body. That's the end of the scene and as we jump back to that point in the BTS now it seems that perhaps the intense emotion (breaking down to crying) was a continuous response from the scene. After some gut wrenching minutes she calms down a little bit as the studs and crew talks her down and even make a little joke. Finally she recover enough to be able to talk and she said something perhaps to explain something but she was still in a emotional state and talking while crying and sobbing (hiccups). After many minutes of recovering and talking (mostly with the bald stud) she finally had the energy to get up and bid thanks and farewell to the camera and go to her change room.

Phew... How crazy is that, you could pick some footage out of this and convinces someone Mao suffered a terrible crime. I was rather upset myself to see this, I really didn't want to see Mao seemingly being very hurt (either physically? more likely emotionally). But if you watch the whole BTS to the end and re-watch the sex scene that precede the crying... well it's more complicated ... is it possible that she was getting her emotional states to that of the r*** victim and plunge herself off the deep-end, so to speak? Really I don't know what I saw or I don't have words for what I think I saw.

For a moment I was thinking, oh that's it, they have hurt a top-class AV vet, at the very least she will quite that studio and even possible she might quit AV all together? At worst she will join the many AV performer and make accusation against the industry. But after watching the whole thing a couple times (without understand a word of everyone say) it seems well maybe she was just temporary emotional state. She was fully willing doing the scene and she wasn't hurt. A huge question is if she would agree to do more anal sex and/or S&M scenes? I am rather hopeful she will, actually I rather enjoy her performance. Anyway I can't write any more, I can't possibly translate the scene into words and I certainly can't express accurately what was going on. Only it's really intense, really nuts and from now on everytime I watch her in any sex scene I will remember how she cries (and the hurt I feel for her).

 

[ding73ding]

(repost of my own post)
...


CESD-484 is the best of these three vids (current batch of three orgy vids). It's the hotter and more famous actresses version of 482. Mao Hamasaki, Waka Ninomiya, Hikaru Konno, Mako Hashigashita. All top busty slut MILFs currently working in JAV today. There's not much to add, simple eating drinking and quick let's fuck orgy. Compared to the previous 2 vids there's also quite a bit more girl-on-girl actions (with vibrators) while the guys watch.

The key points of making a good orgy porn is everyone relaxed and having fun, slow sex and changing partners/positions. But until recently JAV seemed to focus on gangbang and reverse gangbang, or group sex that's just more than one pair of couple sex happening with each other present. Seems last few vids shows JAV is finally getting the hang of orgy. Seems binge drinking is important ingredient.

Interesting point is that CSED-484 and CETD-291 were released one week apart and both vids features Mao and her fav stud the bald guy. Only the two vids were extremely different in nature.

 

[crazykiss]

Totally agreed. The coincidence is i'm re-watching her movie that i got and seeking for new one right now.

But first, i don't even take a look at Mao because she's not my type. It's about the year of 2012 or 2013. At that time, i liked girl with slender body. But once i saw her in some random clip on xvideo, i could not resist watching it. Later, i have to find her name and seeking all of her discography. It's a hard way to tell.

Mao don't have a cute face like may JAV idols, but she got her own attractiveness. Very feminine, she can quickly turn any man to the point when look into her eyes with desire to have sex with her right after that. Mao's body is chubby (my type now) and very sensitive. She can easily get orgasm when fucking and squirting so much. That's the most favouriest part of Mao that i love the most (but sometimes, i wonder if having sex with her, you have to change your bed drap after every time... hehe). Beside that, the feelings of Mao in every single sex scenes was very emotional.

One more thing that i love Mao is she did so many creampie scenes. It's like you're having sex with your real girl!

And together with @ding73ding, i hate those movies that giving me a bad feeling about male actors was hurting Mao (or every other JAV idols). Woman is a treasure from God that man should take a good care of, isn't it?

Is there anybody can share with us news about her daily life? Or interviews? Or stories that you hear about her? That will make us know more about this girl! And i will appreciate!

I'm following Mao on twitter at https://twitter.com/Hamasaki_mao. If you love Mao, you should follow her too!

 

[Hans Kowalski]

She's okay.

 

[Handsome Pete]

She's fine. She's just an incredible sub/performer. In non-porn BDSM, there's always some aftercare needed. She probably gets into one hell of a subspace.

 

[holyabdul]

I am a fan of nice boobs so I should be into her, but somehow she's just meh for me. Something about her face and those big pupil contact lens she wears that I don't like.

 

[ding73ding]

I am a fan of nice boobs so I should be into her, but somehow she's just meh for me. Something about her face and those big pupil contact lens she wears that I don't like.

Curious! I wasn't aware of that. I don't even know what that looks like? Do you have some pix?

 

[holyabdul]

I meant to say large iris, not pupil, sorry.

an example:

I do DL her titles if a specific vid looks interesting, but she's not a must DL for me like for some others.