End of r*** in ero anime and games?

[daredemonai]

I wonder how common it is for people to actually cry wolf in the case of r***. The rule of thumb has been that because of the anguish and humiliation a r*** trial can involve, it would be very unlikely for someone to falsely claim to have been r***ing. On the other hand, there is that very real and very sad 2006 Duke University lacrosse case.

r*** is one of the trickiest crimes to prosecute, because, if there are no witnesses (which is usually the case) and forensic evidence is inconclusive, it comes down to her word against his. I think the justice system usually works pretty well in r*** cases in the U.S., but sometimes prosecutors, police, the public, and, yes, even women's groups, forget that most important rule of American criminal law: It's better to let ten guilty persons go free than it is to wrongly convict one innocent person.

On the other hand, after DNA evidence showed the Duke lacrosse players were innocent and charges were dropped, it was none other than feminist Whoopi Goldberg who came out and said that Al Sharpton owed the players an apology for prejudging them in an interview with Bill O'Reilly. :dunno:

 

[Ditrik]

I was just scrolling down the page of Equality Now when I noticed :

Kenya: At a boarding school, 300 boys attack the girls' dormitory. Seventy-one girls are r***ing. Nineteen are trampled to death in the stampede to escape. The school's vice principal remarks, "The boys never meant any harm against the girls. They just wanted to r***."

While I don't live in Japan and don't know anything about how japanese people behave in given situations.I believe that most of them don't see r*** as something bad,I believe most of them think that women should find pleasure in r***.Similar thing with these boys from Kenya.From that paragraph I can only conclude that they don't see r*** as a bad thing.

So my point is that rather then trying to ban ero-games it would be better to educate delusional japanese people that women don't find enjoyment in r***.Now how should they find those people and how should they educate them beats me.But I believe everyone would agree with me that the ones that cause "trouble" are the ones that can't differentiate fiction from reality.

 

[Sakunyuusha]

Now that, I think, is what's delusional! >_< There are plenty of examples from Japanese pornographic comics of women being genuinely afraid of, disgusted with, angry with, etc. the man or men raping them. Sometimes it changes by the end of the story. Sometimes it doesn't. I've read more stories than I'd like to recall where the woman begged the men to stop, her eyes crying tears of sorrow, her mouth never forming an orgasmic smile, and the men just kept at it, brutalizing her for the sake of brutalizing her, taking a sick twisted pleasure in her sobs and screams for help. The story ends on the final page in tragedy: sometimes the girl is fucked for the rest of her life but is shown years later still not enjoying it. Sometimes the woman is killed by the men after they're done with her. Sometimes she kills herself. They don't show her dying, normally, but they refer to it in the text. The mob boss may mention to Sakurai that he needs to take the ho out back and put her down like the bitch that she is now that she's outlived her usefulness. Really misogynistic, really cruel. Sometimes they show the woman's eyes darting to a gun on the table, her attacker outstretching his hand to try and disarm her, and then the final cel just shows SFX for two separate gunshots and says "THE END," leaving you to wonder who if anyone died.

Personally? I hate these kinds of stories. But they are not rare. Uncommon? Yes. Rare? No. And the fact that they exist at all should prove to you that at least somebody in Japan -- namely, the men drawing these comics in the first place -- is well-aware of the fact that r*** is an unpleasant experience for some, if not most, if not all women. Obviously we agree it's unpleasant for ~all (99.99%) women, but I'm being generous here and conceding that these comics' existence only proves that there are Japanese men who know of r*** sometimes not being a pleasant experience for the woman.

This isn't an issue of Japan's being "a different culture" from ours where "maybe to them r*** is viewed as okay." The Japanese are very aware of what r*** is not because China or America taught them about the concept but because it features in some of the world's oldest recordings in Japan, including the world's first full novel, The Tale of Genji, in which the subject of consensual sex vs. f***rced sex is brought up on numerous occasions courtesy of Genji's insatiable appetite for the womenfolk of Heian-kyo. Japanese scholars have been discussing r*** since before Gutenberg's printing press, and you're going to tell us that maybe the Japanese are culturally ignorant of the evils of r***? Man: good luck with that argument. ;

 

[techie]

I was just scrolling down the page of Equality Now when I noticed :

Kenya: At a boarding school, 300 boys attack the girls' dormitory. Seventy-one girls are r***ing. Nineteen are trampled to death in the stampede to escape. The school's vice principal remarks, "The boys never meant any harm against the girls. They just wanted to r***."

I have never in my life heard of, nor expect to hear of a reference to 71 girls being r***ing and 19 stampeded to death for the fact that someone made a computer game or read an erotic hentai of whatever flavor, and that is in essence what is disproportionate and wrong with the idea that banning comics from being published somehow leads to these massively uneducated behaviors by a select few in societies around the world.

Perhaps, a less paranoid approach to intimacy in the first place will lead to educate young people that consensual intimate behavior is good and will not lead to "ones parts falling off" like they tried to tell kids back in the dark ages.

It is a well known fact in psychology circles that children of parents whom dare show affection to one another in front of their children are likely going to have children a) less prude about hugs and kisses and b) less prone to violence as a result of knowing HOW to show affection.

It is equally not shown anywhere that these Kenya's morons played a hentai game before ganging up on the girls dorm, is there? In fact, judging from these "boy's" behavior, if it happened and is not a ruse of urban legends, they likely didn't even know Manga from Donald Duck to begin with, let alone acceptable social mannerisms.

 

[Ditrik]

Maybe my reference wasn't the best but I just tried to point out that some people don't find r*** morally wrong.When I was talking about Japanese people being ignorant of r*** I wasn't referring to Japan as a whole rather to few delusional individuals that might have played/watched/read some hentai and tried to do it in real-life while thinking that it is perfectly fine to do it because the victim will surely enjoy it in the end.I still remember that there was an article that was saying how one Japanese guy r***ing a victim after previously he watched hentai and decided to try it out in real-life.
Now that guy maybe realizes that committing r*** is morally wrong and still decided to try it out , I don't know , but the only thing I can say for sure is that he confused fiction with reality and people shouldn't try to "fix" the hentai part rather they should "fix" the delusional people part and leave the rest of us enjoying watching/reading/playing hentai.

 

[Sakunyuusha]

But that's no different from the West. At all.

"I shot kids at school 'cause I saw it worked at Columbine." BAN HISTORY BOOKS!
"I tried to get quarters out of the coke machine because I saw it in a movie once." BAN ONSCREEN DEPICTIONS OF THEFT IN FILMS!
"I jumped out of a moving train because I just wondered what it would feel like to experience that." BAN TRAINS!

People do stupid shit all the time, partly because (it's a double-edged sword, folks!) of that wonderful, amazing gift of ours which we should all cherish every day, and that is human ingenuity. Humans are damned curious creatures and they're also damned clever. But at an instinctive level, we never fully escape the toddler phase of putting things in our mouth to see how they taste. Oh sure, we quit sucking on Mom's car keys and Dad's guitar picks, but we still do things "to try them out" and see what it's like. We're imaginative beings who see something in a book or a film and then try to apply it to real life.

Sometimes it works brilliantly, smashingly even! It's thanks to the works of Jules Verne and his contemporaries that the scientists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries even thought to try and construct submersibles, rocketships, and other fantastic vehicles of transportation. Some of them never made it off the drawing board, and some of them famously did. Somebody read about traveling to the moon as a boy in the late 1800s and as a man in the early 1900s he was launching homemade ballistics to try and reach the exosphere. And Verne's spaceships are by no means alone! What about Aldous Huxley's sci-fi thriller Brave New World whose opening chapter, penned before the Second World War, details in eerie accuracy the procedure by which to make babies in vitro in the laboratory ("test tube babies")? What about spy novels of the 1940s, '50s, and '60s which talked about laser pens and portable headgear for communication (i.e. earpiece mobile phones like BlueTooth devices? LOL).

This is why human beings are so amazing and at the same time so terrible too. We have the power in us to do good and to do evil. For every man who invents a better toaster, there's one who invents a better bullet. And for every man who sees a guy asking a girl out in the subway and decides to try it for himself, there's another man who sees a guy waiting inside a woman's restroom stall for an unlucky lady to show up to take a pee only to discover she's being held at gunpoint and forced to have sex with the fellow ... and this moron decides he'd like to give this idea a whirl, too.

That's why you have to really love and fear the dreamers, folks. If we didn't dream, we wouldn't take Heaven from books' pages and make it our own. But if we didn't dream, we also wouldn't take Hell from their pages and make it our own, either. We make Heaven real and we make Hell real because of the same blessed, or accursed, gift.

It's one reason I love our species, but it's truly, truly a double-edged sword and even I agree that it hurts a lot when the sword swings the wrong way.

 

[Ditrik]

What are you saying is true but you're talking way too general , the thing that is being discussed here is whether it is acceptable to ban ero-games on premise that they negatively influence not just Japanese people but all people around the globe.
And the conclusion which I believe we'll all agree with is that it is NOT acceptable because of human ingenuity that you have mentioned.

 

[daredemonai]

I have never in my life heard of, nor expect to hear of a reference to 71 girls being r***ing and 19 stampeded to death for the fact that someone made a computer game or read an erotic hentai of whatever flavor, and that is in essence what is disproportionate and wrong with the idea that banning comics from being published somehow leads to these massively uneducated behaviors by a select few in societies around the world.
<snip>
It is equally not shown anywhere that these Kenya's morons played a hentai game before ganging up on the girls dorm, is there? In fact, judging from these "boy's" behavior, if it happened and is not a ruse of urban legends, they likely didn't even know Manga from Donald Duck to begin with, let alone acceptable social mannerisms.

If you look at the Equality Now site, you will see that the Kenya incident and the issue of r*** simulation games are discussed on different pages and treated as totally different issues. I think Ditrik quoted the piece on Kenya as an example of a culture in which r*** is perceived very differently than it is in most cultures. No one in Equality Now is stupid enough to try to blame mass r***s in Kenya on r***-simulation games made in Japan.

Again, before you pass judgment on Equality Now, please look at the original source. If you look at the various issues they are working on, you will see that media depictions (such as Japanese r*** games) are just one of many; most of their work deals with actual violence (such as the Kenya case).

 

[HENTAIBEN]

Well I stand corrected. Forgive me for speaking on other's behalves. Hopefully I haven't offended you too much. Anyhow... carry on with the discussion, I'll be quite now ;x

 

[techie]

Again, before you pass judgment on Equality Now, please look at the original source. If you look at the various issues they are working on, you will see that media depictions (such as Japanese r*** games) are just one of many; most of their work deals with actual violence (such as the Kenya case).

Just for the record, I was not passing judgment on Equality Now but rather the reference on r***, and the generalized statement regarding the "Japanese state of mind" as it came through above.

I am sure Equality Now does good work and bad work, like most humans do from time to time.

It's thanks to the works of Jules Verne and his contemporaries that the scientists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries even thought to try and construct submersibles, rocketships, and other fantastic vehicles of transportation.

It was most refreshing to see a reference to this fact as I seem to recall when Jules Vernes released the books he was very happy he did so under a pseudonym, as I know they called for the banning of his books as damning the minds of young people already back then.

(See a previous reference I made in the Handley thread regarding the State of Utah banning Harry Potter from school references and public libraries.)

The very same people who tried to ban it back then (the governments) are now spending billions on figuring out how to blow up another space shuttle.

 

[daredemonai]

Well I stand corrected. Forgive me for speaking on other's behalves. Hopefully I haven't offended you too much. Anyhow... carry on with the discussion, I'll be quite now ;x

Now offense taken. :bingo: I think this is an issue on which reasonable people can disagree. Particularly when it comes to talk of banning any form of expression, the more discussion the better, IMHO. So please don't feel you have to be quiet, Hentaiben.

 

[Haseo]

no i dont want it to end i love those kind of game and anime:wait:

 

[reingiolt]

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/06/24/eroge-taliban-take-over-all-fetishes-banned-in-eroge/

surely this cannot be true? what started as banning r*** in eroge has turned into banning almost all fetishes known to man. as much as i doubt the authenticity of this news i just can't help but be worried since this is the country that censors private parts in their AVs.

 

[elgringo14]

I cannot believe the erogame industry is commiting suicide just because a bunch of people complained about some of their releases content.

Better wait for a confirmation from the companies themselves. And for the long-term consequences.

 

[KTZ]

If this is true or this blanket ban does get implemented in full force, it'll be a very, very sad day for the industry which has given us so many great games and anime over the years. :defeat:

Probably the only thing that can stop the virtual collapse of the eroge scene is a mass protest in Akihabara. >_>

 

[aquamarine]

A mass protest in Akiba? Of what... a few hundred twenty-something's that forgot to shower that morning, live in their parents attic and that have never had sex with anyone other than their right hand before?

Yea... the government officials will REALLY care about them. ... hrm.... then again, they should consider doing something like that. I know it would add more humor to my morning rather than just watching the same old boring news on my phone on the train.

 

[Sakunyuusha]

A mass protest in Akiba? Of what... a few hundred twenty-something's that forgot to shower that morning, live in their parents attic and that have never had sex with anyone other than their right hand before?

I think you forgot the most important part: non-confrontational in the flesh. To me, that's the #1 reason why they'd never protest in public. Sure, they'll protest on 2channel, 2chan, etc, but they're not going to rally in public because they're much too neurotic and paranoid to do that sort of thing.

If this news is true, I have a few questions:
1- why is the EOCS doing this? it would be as if the RIAA told the American public, "From now on, we won't be working with any country labels." Does that mean no more country music? No! It just means the RIAA is forcing an "RIAA Jr." into existence, one which will manage country music. I see the same thing being true here: the EOCS is forcing "EOCS Jr." into existence, and all the XXX 18+ XTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME ;p stuff is going to handled by Junior while all of the normal stuff will be handled by Momma EOCS. Still, that doesn't explain why. Why would they do this? What benefit does it serve?

2- does this really matter? After all, the EOCS is not the Japanese government.

3- in the immediate future, doesn't this simply mean that we're going to see a lot of Japanese eroge products being miraculously produced "domestically" by Chinese and Korean companies, and then later imported to Japan? After all, if they're not made by Japanese companies (technically speaking ;p), then the EOCS can't lift a finger. Japanese law determines whether an imported good is legal or not, right?

4- and last but not least, isn't this just delaying the inevitable? WHEN IS THE GOVERNMENT GOING TO GET INVOLVED? Granted, they've got bigger fish to fry, but you and I both know that even as we speak they're already wasting time on the tiniest of fish. Stupid dumb pet projects of theirs like "clean up Ueno Park!" or "ensure good relations between the U.S. and Japanese men's table tennis teams." Bah. If they have time for that, make time for freedom-of-speech-meets-porno-comics. Thanks.

 

[daredemonai]

I originally posted this translation to another thread, but I thought it should be posted here, too, since people are concerned about the details of the new (and still nebulous) restrictions. The source of the text I translated is here.

First, some context, since it's rather complicated. The source is "DejiPare" (an abbreviation of "Digital Palace"), a.k.a. L.L.Palace Corporation. Palace is a consignment sales site that sells a wide variety of erotic software created by both amateurs and professionals alike. They are also a member of the EOCS. In order to let its many clients know what the new guidelines are, they provide a summary, which I suspect is pretty much identical to the wording the EOCS sent its members in non-public correspondence. I assume the opening passage is Palace's own wording, and everything following that is from the EOCS. (Note: I'm just translating the main portion of the entry dated 2009/06/23, not the brief footnote added the next day or other particulars not of interest to people who aren't Palace clients.)

I'm sure many of you are aware of this because of television coverage and other sources from the past several months. Criticism of adult software, including r*** software, has become quite harsh, and we have been put in a position where we are forced to proceed with restrictions.

I hope you will understand the difficult situation the industry is in, and cooperate accordingly.

Genres and keywords subject to restriction (as determined by the EOCS):

レイプ　　　　reipu (r***)
ロリ　　　　　rori (Lolita)
輪姦　　　　　rinkan (gang r***/gang bang)
陵辱　　　　　ryoujoku (r*** (also indignity, disgrace, insult))
鬼畜　　　　　kichiku (a brute/a savage/a fiend)
逆レイプ　　　gyaku reipu (reverse r***)
少女　　　　　shoujo (girl)
相姦　　　　　soukan (taboo sexual relations)
逆陵辱　　　　gyaku ryoujoku (reverse r***)
強要　　　　　kyouyou (coercion)
複数プレイ　　fukusuu purei (multiple play)
生徒会　　　　seitokai (student council)
獣姦　　　　　juukan (bestiality)
拘束　　　　　kousoku (confinement)
脅迫　　　　　kyouhaku (threat/intimidation)
車内わいせつ　shanai waisetu ( (indecent behavior on a train)
援助交際　　　enjo kousai (minor having sexual relations with an adult in exchange for money or gifts)
近親相姦　　　kinshin soukan (incest)
拷問　　　　　goumon (torture)
緊縛　　　　　kinbaku (binding tightly)
妊娠　　　　　ninshin (pregnancy)
強姦　　　　　goukan (r***)
奴隷　　　　　dorei (slave)
妊婦　　　　　ninpu (pregnant woman)
監禁　　　　　kankin (forced confinement)
孕ませ　　　　haramase (impregnation)

In addition to these terms, content and keywords meant to suggest these terms (e.g., JC, JK, U18, U15, etc.) are also subject to restriction. Other terms may be added in the future.

Furthermore, these restrictions apply not only to textual information (e.g., scenarios, dialogue, hidden keywords, group and brand names, etc.) but also to images (regardless of whether they are CGI or actual photographs)

The general impression I get is the EOCS is still hammering out the details, and has begun by addressing the most obvious, superficial issues in a very general way.

Again, it is way too early to predict where this is going. Not even a month has passed since the EOCS held its emergency meeting!

 

[tofufa]

I know this is a complete waste of time, since trying convince a bunch of foaming-at-the-mouth anti-feminists that feminism is not necessarily a bad thing is like trying to convince a group of Ku Klux Klan members that Protestant Caucasians are not inherently superior to anyone else, but since no one else seems inclined to voice an opposing opinion, I would simply request that you take a look at Equality Now's website before you condemn it as an "anti-free-speech group" that doesn't care about real life. You might also want to read Equality Now's response to precisely the kind of hate-filled reactions that fill this thread.

I can vouch for their claim that crime statistics from Japan are unreliable. Police discourage people from officially reporting a crime unless it's a slam-dunk case that will improve their own conviction statistics. When I reported a theft of ¥500,000 to the police, the officer I talked to scowled at me from beginning to end and tried to bully me out of filing an official report, since the circumstances made it a difficult case for the police to solve. Why did he go to such lengths to discourage me from reporting the theft? Because it meant one more unsolved crime that would affect his precinct's statistics.

r*** is almost always difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and Japanese police would prefer that victims just "get over it" and not file charges. I know Japanese women who have been r***ing but didn't report the crime because they knew they would just end up being victimized again by the police and the so-called justice system, as well as being stigmatized as "that girl who says she was r***ing."

Finally, before you declare this to be a case of American or Western women trying to impose their values on another country, note that the current Board of Directors includes women from Palestine, Ethiopia, Argentina, Somalia, Nepal, and Japan. Bye.

P.S.: I don't know why this thread is filed under "News," since the so-called "article" in the first post is not an objective journalistic report but rather a diatribe.

The response you have in your post is just some government official type of speech.

Statistic of Jap. Police is wrong?
Prove it.

Not like
I know Japanese women who have been r***ing but didn't report the crime because they knew they would just end up being victimized again by the police and the so-called justice system, as well as being stigmatized as "that girl who says she was r***ing."

only happens in Japan. Or you are very delusional, if you think that. And exactly how many Japanese been r*** but didn't go to police that you know of?

If you think anime/hentai has *anything* to do with actual r*** or not, you are also dim-witted.

Let's go through history, do you think r*** now is happening more? Due to erotic/r*** hentai/anime?

Want to look at those sexually harrassment pics from U.S. troops?
I bet they watched a lot of those anime? Oh, wait, they don't.

Want to look at WWII, how Japanese troops treating the other countries' female captives?
I bet they watched alot of those anime back then, seeing that they have those hentai/anime back then. Oh, wait, they don't.

So, go suck a lemon. With your stupid claim and your stupid support of a self-righteous organization.

Their *intention* is ok, they are *doing it wrong*. Like in the days you (happily)kill your own son thinking you sending him to "a" God wrong.:murder:

 

[tofufa]

oh.. just to add my position.

I very much dispite r**ist and the sort. Also those harassment toward youngsters.

But, the anime/hentai doesn't have much to do with those occuring. (in some cases yes, but no more than those people watching a movie thinking you butch your relative within a circle summons satan)

The central thesis around r*** is the aggression through "power" to attain something one desired.
Earth's societies labeled sexual kind to be one of the worst there is. IMO, if they want to make "r***" stop, they need to stop "bullying" of all kinds.

Ironically, they are "bullying" the country/publisher to stop publishing those materials.

Which is why my previous post is saying they are doing it wrong.

(Open a new post, because internet ate up a couple posts during my first post already, so just to make sure I don't have to type it multiple times... )