It isn't that I missed what you wrote; rather, it's that I had (and still have) a hard time believing that somebody who speaks daily Japanese fluently would not have scored Level 2 proficiency on the JLPT, I now think that it is because we are so different in our written and spoken proficiencies, with you saying you're fluent orally and newbish written while I'd say I'm intermediate at both levels.
learning Japanese?
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I see your point. However, you must be aware that good speaking command doesn't automatically grant you 2 kyu; and as side not, it's not that I haven't scored 2 kyu, it's that I haven't tried... shy of kanji, I suppose 
And not that it matters too much, but I happen to know at least another case similar to mine: colleague of mine at the university, son of a diplomat in Japan, lived his childhood in Tokyo (8 to 16 or so); think he was the best in our class? Surprisingly, not by far, although nobody beat him at high speed talk and slang. (Even now I think he's better than me anyway
And not that it matters too much, but I happen to know at least another case similar to mine: colleague of mine at the university, son of a diplomat in Japan, lived his childhood in Tokyo (8 to 16 or so); think he was the best in our class? Surprisingly, not by far, although nobody beat him at high speed talk and slang. (Even now I think he's better than me anyway
are you kidding? After being here for four years I always run into Japanese who speak much better English than I speak Japanese. You seriously don't need to know a lick of Japanese to live here your entire life. It helps but is not needed simply from having so much English support all over the place.
I really wish people would stop posting about things they don't know about. I certainly won't try to explain Pakistani and Indian caste social systems, so please don't talk about things you don't know about just to look smart. You make yourself look like an ass when someone comes around who knows what is correct.
I can completely respect that you want to share the knowledge you have gained through all of the A/V you have watched, all of the cartoons and Japanese comic books you have seen, but unless you have first hand experience, please don't comment. It annoys people and leads others the wrong way.
So to re-cap:
1) Going to Japan? Good for you! Consider learning some Japanese
2) Do you need Japanese to visit Japan? Yes and no.
__2a) Will you visit and stay in a large city? Yes? Then don't worry about learning Japanese
__2b) Will you visit and remain in a small town? Then consider buying an electronic translator/dictionary and carry a pocket dictionary with you. Learning Japanese for a short visit is a moot point unless it's your hobby.
__2c) Going to a major city, then traveling around via Shinkansen? Yes, consider learning some general phrases in Japanese.
3) Will you need to use your Japanese while in Japan? Most likely not, plus the vast majority of places you will visit (sight-seeing I presume) will have more than enough English support for you, plus most Japanese speak English to a certain degree.
4) Why am I coming off as a bit of a jerk? Because I know better than most of the online guru's that have been spouting off false information in this topic area ("Japanese Discussion"). Simply put, I'm smarter.
Any more questions: Feel free to ask them here or in private. (Or in the picture thread)
Aqua
I really wish people would stop posting about things they don't know about. I certainly won't try to explain Pakistani and Indian caste social systems, so please don't talk about things you don't know about just to look smart. You make yourself look like an ass when someone comes around who knows what is correct.
I can completely respect that you want to share the knowledge you have gained through all of the A/V you have watched, all of the cartoons and Japanese comic books you have seen, but unless you have first hand experience, please don't comment. It annoys people and leads others the wrong way.
So to re-cap:
1) Going to Japan? Good for you! Consider learning some Japanese
2) Do you need Japanese to visit Japan? Yes and no.
__2a) Will you visit and stay in a large city? Yes? Then don't worry about learning Japanese
__2b) Will you visit and remain in a small town? Then consider buying an electronic translator/dictionary and carry a pocket dictionary with you. Learning Japanese for a short visit is a moot point unless it's your hobby.
__2c) Going to a major city, then traveling around via Shinkansen? Yes, consider learning some general phrases in Japanese.
3) Will you need to use your Japanese while in Japan? Most likely not, plus the vast majority of places you will visit (sight-seeing I presume) will have more than enough English support for you, plus most Japanese speak English to a certain degree.
4) Why am I coming off as a bit of a jerk? Because I know better than most of the online guru's that have been spouting off false information in this topic area ("Japanese Discussion"). Simply put, I'm smarter.
Any more questions: Feel free to ask them here or in private. (Or in the picture thread)
Aqua
One simple thing which hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that if you are going to study Japanese, from day one, start with the kana and do not, repeat, do not use romanized letters. The best way to get a good feel of the rhythm of Japanese (the sounds are syllabic) is through the native "alphabet". English speakers here in Japan can hear how the use of katakana in teaching english has destroyed the ability Japanese to get good native pronunciation; in the same way, romaji soon become a crutch. Find a text book which uses only kana and you'll be better off for it.
Just my two yen worth....
Just my two yen worth....
@ aquamarine:
If you're talking about hanging around in academic circles, than I could understand your position. Otherwise, "I always run into Japanese who speak much better English than I speak Japanese."...? Care to share where can I find that high concentration of trained English speakers (in Kansai, at least)?
And "most Japanese speak English to a certain degree" -- now who's kidding?! This might come true in a generation or so -- if their government's intentions get to materialize and bear fruits... Otherwise, for everyone out there still tuned in to this discussion: Japan is neither Holland nor Sweden, and that "certain degree" is a very low one, indeed.
N.B. I'll concede the points you make about learning and the motivation behind it hold true nevertheless.
If you're talking about hanging around in academic circles, than I could understand your position. Otherwise, "I always run into Japanese who speak much better English than I speak Japanese."...? Care to share where can I find that high concentration of trained English speakers (in Kansai, at least)?
And "most Japanese speak English to a certain degree" -- now who's kidding?! This might come true in a generation or so -- if their government's intentions get to materialize and bear fruits... Otherwise, for everyone out there still tuned in to this discussion: Japan is neither Holland nor Sweden, and that "certain degree" is a very low one, indeed.
N.B. I'll concede the points you make about learning and the motivation behind it hold true nevertheless.
And the moral of the story is? Kansai does not equal Kantou.
And the follow-up moral of the story is? When somebody claims that "everyone" in their part of Japan speaks English well or poorly, what they really mean to say is "everyone who lives in my city" (if they are in a city) or "everyone who lives in my area" (if they are in a small village or rural area) "plus everyone I've ever run into when I've toured through Japan." It is entirely possible for two people from Kansai to disagree or for a person from Kansai and a person from Kantou to agree about English proficiency in Japan depending on whether each of them comes from the countryside or the big cities.
Damnit.
Well I was going to come back with an uppity "I-know-better-than-you cuz' I've-been-here-longer" speech but Sakunyuusha sorta killed it for me.
Damn.
Anyways, yes, the vast majority of people that I have run into around Yokohama, Kawasaki, Tokyo and Chiba have a marginal level of English. Most often those who I talk to (I like just suddenly talking to people on trains) will speak better English than I speak Japanese (my JPS is piss-poor BTW).
SO... are these people I encounter educated? Not sure.
They have been young children
They have been teenages
They have been housevies, OL's and 'sararymans'
They have been OLD old men (ie: 80+)
But what do I know? I'm Canadian after-all.
Well I was going to come back with an uppity "I-know-better-than-you cuz' I've-been-here-longer" speech but Sakunyuusha sorta killed it for me.
Damn.
Anyways, yes, the vast majority of people that I have run into around Yokohama, Kawasaki, Tokyo and Chiba have a marginal level of English. Most often those who I talk to (I like just suddenly talking to people on trains) will speak better English than I speak Japanese (my JPS is piss-poor BTW).
SO... are these people I encounter educated? Not sure.
They have been young children
They have been teenages
They have been housevies, OL's and 'sararymans'
They have been OLD old men (ie: 80+)
But what do I know? I'm Canadian after-all.
During my time in Kansai, there were a fair amount of Japanese who had some rudimentary control of English, although not enough that someone without the ability to speak at least some Japanese could survive without any problems -- no matter where you go you'll undoubtedly face some amount of difficulties.
Of course, I speak from my exprience living in Kyoto (京大、だから英語能力が高いだろう), which while fairly metropolitan (while still retaining many "small town" values) is not as large as Osaka or Tokyo, and therein lies the real difference. Generally speaking, in smaller towns you're more likely to be welcomed warmly by people who will try their best to work through communication barriers. But people in large cities (all over the world, not just in Japan) tend to be much colder in day-to-day interactions.
Therefore it's pointless to make claims about how much or how little English Japanese people know, especially in regional differences. People in Tokyo could be more fluent in English, but if they choose to ignore you as they do to most tourists, you'd still have a difficult time.
Point is, if you want to spend only a short amount of time in Japan, you can survive with a tourbook and no Japanese (after all, McDonalds and KFC are almost everywhere, and you can get by pointing to pictures of what you want). For longer term, basic Japanese knowledge will go a long way to help bridge the communication gap, and barring that a decent support network (friends already living in Japan) will be invaluable.
Of course, I speak from my exprience living in Kyoto (京大、だから英語能力が高いだろう), which while fairly metropolitan (while still retaining many "small town" values) is not as large as Osaka or Tokyo, and therein lies the real difference. Generally speaking, in smaller towns you're more likely to be welcomed warmly by people who will try their best to work through communication barriers. But people in large cities (all over the world, not just in Japan) tend to be much colder in day-to-day interactions.
Therefore it's pointless to make claims about how much or how little English Japanese people know, especially in regional differences. People in Tokyo could be more fluent in English, but if they choose to ignore you as they do to most tourists, you'd still have a difficult time.
Point is, if you want to spend only a short amount of time in Japan, you can survive with a tourbook and no Japanese (after all, McDonalds and KFC are almost everywhere, and you can get by pointing to pictures of what you want). For longer term, basic Japanese knowledge will go a long way to help bridge the communication gap, and barring that a decent support network (friends already living in Japan) will be invaluable.
Whatever.
I've been here without interruptions for a little more than aquamarine says he's been, and I dare anyone to try to "to live here his/her entire life" without needing "to know a lick of Japanese". Try a bank, a post office, a municipality office: you'll know what I mean. Try paperwork, formalities, or just getting around a little better than the average tourist, and you'll know what I mean. Try finding a house or negotiating anything of certain value on your own: you'll find what I mean when I call the above statement simply BS.
If you're on your one-time life trip to Japan, as in the frantic Tokyo - Osaka - Kyoto - whatsoever tour, who in the right mind would bother to learn the language?? What for?
Living here for me is no different than the period when I lived in France (3 yrs.) or in Germany (1 yr.) -- just harder, 'cause I really plan to stay here for as long as I can. Knowing the language doesn't just 'help', it is essential to your welfare. And people here are not different than in other parts of the world. They go seeing about their lives without giving a damn that you fit in or not. Big cities, small towns -- it's all the same. It rather depends on the circles you're moving into, I dare say.
That said, I have a 2-days business trip to Tokyo coming next week... I'll get a kick randomly asking simple questions in English (i.e. location, directions, etc.) trying to see if it is so different than Osaka & Kyoto. May be, maybe not. But still, I'm curious.
I've been here without interruptions for a little more than aquamarine says he's been, and I dare anyone to try to "to live here his/her entire life" without needing "to know a lick of Japanese". Try a bank, a post office, a municipality office: you'll know what I mean. Try paperwork, formalities, or just getting around a little better than the average tourist, and you'll know what I mean. Try finding a house or negotiating anything of certain value on your own: you'll find what I mean when I call the above statement simply BS.
If you're on your one-time life trip to Japan, as in the frantic Tokyo - Osaka - Kyoto - whatsoever tour, who in the right mind would bother to learn the language?? What for?
Living here for me is no different than the period when I lived in France (3 yrs.) or in Germany (1 yr.) -- just harder, 'cause I really plan to stay here for as long as I can. Knowing the language doesn't just 'help', it is essential to your welfare. And people here are not different than in other parts of the world. They go seeing about their lives without giving a damn that you fit in or not. Big cities, small towns -- it's all the same. It rather depends on the circles you're moving into, I dare say.
That said, I have a 2-days business trip to Tokyo coming next week... I'll get a kick randomly asking simple questions in English (i.e. location, directions, etc.) trying to see if it is so different than Osaka & Kyoto. May be, maybe not. But still, I'm curious.
one my old Spanish teacher told me best way to learn language is to spend time their. she would each year spend 3 weeks on her summer brake and go to France or any Spanish speak country to help keep up with language. if do not get use to people speaking all time hard for you learn it good too. so would help to have some that understands it too while trying to learn it. i for got most Spanish when i took since been work with people i picked some up. here the bad part about me learning Spanish and not keep up with it. i can read really good but do not know what i am saying since i know how read words with out nothing what means since i cam pronounce words good. need some help out when learning language. we have people that have hard time learning English since where they live at only want them to speak home language instead of learning our language at same time only here for make good money but not will to learn our language at all.
Axandra means basic conversation by "daily". While I've been here I've met people 100% fluent in basic conversation and then some but couldn't write hiragana or katakana. You use the only part of the language that you need. Axandra's later statement that it is a plus to your living experience can be true for some but not all. I recall some co-workers that would totally get frustrated with their language studies and give up. I didn't and don't plan too but with my change in life style has damaged my formal studies.
The difference in skill level between 3級 & 2級 is possibly the most dramatic in the 4 levels. I've taken and successfully passed 3 and know that to be successful with 2 I'll need to do so much more studying. Also having daily fluency would really only help in the listening portion of the test. All other parts are reading/writing and require a different language skill.
Best of luck to us all.
皆頑張って！
desioner
The difference in skill level between 3級 & 2級 is possibly the most dramatic in the 4 levels. I've taken and successfully passed 3 and know that to be successful with 2 I'll need to do so much more studying. Also having daily fluency would really only help in the listening portion of the test. All other parts are reading/writing and require a different language skill.
Best of luck to us all.
皆頑張って！
desioner
