Ceewan said:
Great. Another idiot atheist trying to pick a fight with me by rewriting history to fit his arguments. If you wish to resurrect a post of mine from over 6 months ago with weak counter arguments based on half-truths and lies just to get a rise out of me then feel welcome to waste your efforts.
The vast majority of all Americans, including the delegates at the Constitutional Convention in 1787 and the previous Continental Congress of 1775 were generally protestants, certainly they were Christians. During 1765 Jefferson led the call in Virginia for a Fastday in protest of "the hostile invasion" of Boston by the British, along with such memorable allies at his side as Patrick Henry. One of Jeffersons' greatest triumphs in Virginia was the approval of the Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom, which was a bill in defense of Presbyterian and Baptist churchs' located in his home state.
The American Revolution, (that Glorious Cause), the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution itself was greatly influenced by the Christian values and beliefs of the everyday men and women that shed blood and tears in their struggle for liberty and freedom. No historian worth his salt would, or to my knowledge has ever, denied the role that Christianity had among the people of America or their chosen leaders during this era. To do so would be both foolish and ignorant.
...If you do not have the decency to allow others the freedom of their beliefs than that just shows how insecure you are in your own.
(1) Do you always immediately, and foremost, lash out with personal insults at those with differing viewpoints? Is that how you usually conduct yourself? I'm not picking a fight. Please, don't get so emotional. I'm merely clearing up your faux-historical claim.
(see: "I am a christian too, so were the founders of America and the writers of the constitution.")
(2) I had already stated that many of the founding "fathers" were theists. For you to re-establish this already stated fact is unnecessary. The point was that some key "founders" were
not theists, and instead deists. If they were alive today they would almost certainly be atheists given their inclination to defy theistic assertions and their inclination to use evidence to form beliefs. In fact, Jefferson was
often accused of being an atheist when Republicans and Federalists were squabbling at the end of the 1790s.
(3) So Jefferson led a fast, in protest against the British.
So what? It was a political protest. Mahatma Gandhi also led fasts. Does that make him a christian too?
(4) You didn't actually counter any of my points about Jefferson or Madison, or explain where I had stated a "lie." You just asserted that christian values and beliefs influenced the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Yet, the Constitution doesn't mention a god, doesn't match "god's" commandments in the bible, and actually instead states that no one should have to do any sort of religious test to hold public office (Article VI, paragraph 3 of the U.S. Constitution), which is contrary to christian commandments in the bible that state that not believing in the holy spirit is an unforgivable sin (see: Mark 3, verse 28-30) Religion, and more exactly, the bible and christianity, are like a big book of multiple choice. You can choose the nice bits that you want to follow and from which to take influence, and disregard everything about them that you find unsavory.
Unfortunately, the bible is full of a lot of very immoral and unsavory things, like, supporting human enslavement. (
Leviticus: As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.)
(5) The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom guaranteed religious freedom for people of all religions; Catholic, Jew, Protestant. It was the forerunner to the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. You know, that important amendment regarding having
no federal religion and stating that
no one has to be religious, or follow an deity? All of which is contrary to christianity, where if you
don't believe in the holy spirit you can never be forgiven, and if you
do not believe in this god character you are a sinner.
(6) When did I say that I am not going to allow someone to believe something? You're creating a fictional character in your head, I'm afraid. People can believe whatever they want. They just can't force me or anyone else to believe it.
(7) Jefferson and Madison had the sense to realize that religion had caused a lot of feuding, division, and turmoil throughout their lives and in human history. That is one of the biggest reasons they didn't want the government to favor one particular sect over another; they wanted harmony over strife. It's also why they both supported the idea of separating church and state affairs. Yes, christianity had a role in the United States. So what? So did the Renaissance, the Greek civilization that worshipped different deities, Science, and economics. Your claim was that the founders were christians.
Some were, and some were not. I gave you two
very key figures that were not "christians", in the sense they didn't believe in a theistic deity and in their lives openly criticized much of orthodox christianity. Jefferson didn't believe in the trinity, did not believe in the divinity of this character known as Jesus, and he openly called for the application of reason and evidence, the opposite of faith (which is a core of christianity, and something you seem to value.)
As Jefferson wrote to his nephew in 1787:
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
and
Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545:
The opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds.
Also worth reading (Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom):
Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities
(8) If you think the Constitution was written and influenced by the values and beliefs of the everyday man and woman, your history is a little fuzzy,
again, I'm afraid. You do realize that women weren't allowed to vote, blacks were worth less than 1 full white human being, blacks were not allowed to vote, and that only land-owning persons could vote, yes? Only white land owning males could vote for about 40 years after the Constitution went into effect. So again, you've offered up a faux-historical assertion that has been easily dismantled. Does that sound to you like the "everyday man and woman's" beliefs and virtues were a great influence upon the writing of the new laws of the land?
