learning Japanese?

[Shinji Kusanagi]

Learning from mainstream media is fine, but I think dramas would do a better job than anime. Dramas maintain a sense of realism to their themes, so the actors and actresses should use conversational language that the average Japanese would use. As for anime, the themes can be utterly exaggerated and the language used must complement the themes. Thus they might use inappropriate or unnecessary phrases that u might unwittingly pick up, and when u use them, it might offend them.

But if u're really serious, attending school the traditional way is still the best method. Educational videos help out a little. Definitely helpful if u just want to know a few key phrases to get by in Japan. But u'll most probably do not understand the workings of the language system, more in-depth stuff like verbs, particles, language forms etc.

The best combination would be to attend language schools and watch dramas regularly at the same time. Most of the times, the formal form of Japanese is taught in schools, and it'll be weird for u to converse in such a polite manner with peers. I had that prb when my friend talks in colloquial Japanese cos' he watches more drama than I do. But since then, I've watched more dramas and kept up with him.

Formally learning the language is a beautiful thing. Once u've reached a certain level, say end of Intermediate, u should be able to derive the phrases used in dramas despite not being taught formally in classes. But because of ur grasp of the language system, u should be able to understand the rationale and workings to the creation of that particular phrase. I'm beginning to appreciate my lessons more and more. Give it a try!

 

[shujin]

Well it depends on what you mean by "conversational".

Conversational to me means being able to sit and have a general conversation, without having to look up every other word in an electric dictionary.

I disagree with you using fluent in connection to being able to order from a menu. Fluent comes from the Latin word fluens, or to flow or flowing. This does not sound like a menu order to me.

I do agree however, that with with hard work in a week or so, you could learn some very useful survival phrases, which will go a long way if your planning to take a trip.

Also Shinji is dead on with his opinion that dramas make for better practice than animes. The language is far more natural.

 

[The switch]

This is the speed test used at the school. There is another member of this site who might be using the speed test so the results might look identical.

 

[Denamic]

'tis mine.
That's the closest server to me that doesn't suck, and it shows about 2/3 of my highest possible speeds.
Wish I had a bigger uplink.
Let's stay on-topic from now.

 

[dman89]

Man, I heard Japanese is hard from my friend. It has many Kanji's and Hirogana's. I heard Japanese is the 2nd biggest language to learn right after Chinese. But im wondering, to be able to understand Japanese people and communicate which one should you learn more, or focus more on?

 

[guy]

You can think of kana (hiragana and katakana) as the Japanese alphabet. Kanji makes up the bulk of vocabulary, but the characters can be spelled out in hiragana to help you figure out how it's pronounced.

For example, the word "Japanese language":
日本語 (kanji) = にほんご (kana) = nihongo (romaji)

But I'm not sure what you're asking. If you want to communicate in Japanese, of course you should learn Japanese, not Mandarin.

 

[Denamic]

I like furigana. (the small writing that you sometimes see next to kanji in media such as anime)
Helps out tremendously when trying to read kanji.

 

[dman89]

You can think of kana (hiragana and katakana) as the Japanese alphabet. Kanji makes up the bulk of vocabulary, but the characters can be spelled out in hiragana to help you figure out how it's pronounced.

For example, the word "Japanese language":
日本語 (kanji) = にほんご (kana) = nihongo (romaji)

But I'm not sure what you're asking. If you want to communicate in Japanese, of course you should learn Japanese, not Mandarin.

:coldsweat: ok i got it, thats a lot of stuff. My friend who learned Japanese said it is kind if difficult. :sick:

 

[Ledzep1]

Check mininova and search for a "Japanese learning pack" its about a 13GB file thats loaded with software, audio, video and textbooks... thats how I got started before taking classes at my local community college during my Junior year of High-school.

But I have 2 recommendations that are absolutely crucial. You MUST make Japanese friends to talk to on a regular basis (preferably in person, though facebook can really boost reading/writing skills) and If you ever want to read ANYTHING in Japanese online I suggest you do a google search for a firefox plugin called "rikaichan."

 

[ASSASSIN27]

date a japanese girl

go date a japanese girl. your japanese will improve faster than you think. i still suck at japanese, but from what i've noticed it seems like hiragana is used for more common/or traditional words and katagana is used for more modern words.

like a lot of people i'm better at reading than speaking. you'll familiarize yourself by reading the subway signs everyday and by looking out the buses at signs. it took me about a year to get used to reading things, but i still don't understand a lot. i can't pick up a newspaper or read a magazine, but i can write simple things to explain.

once you learn the hira/kata gana writing system i suggest starting with numbers : counting, money and than days of the week. that's how i started.

hope this helps a little.

 

[guy]

Yes, hiragana is used primarily for native words while katakana is used primarily for foreign/loan words. But katakana is also often used stylistically to write native words to give them a more masculine or more direct emphasis.

Then there's also kanji characters. Hiragana can be used on top of kanji (called furigana) to help explain which pronunciation is being used (because kanji have more than one pronunciation). And sometimes (often on TV) the kanji is "spelled out" in katakana, again for stylistic emphasis.

Example: the word baka (idiot) is properly written in kanji as 馬鹿. The furigana ばか can be written above it as a pronunciation key, so that if you don't recognize the kanji, you can still "read" it if you know hiragana. Or the kanji can be substituted with the katakana バカ for emphasis.

As you learn more Japanese, you will find that people switch between the three very often, and sometimes without any obvious pattern, so there's no choice but to learn it all (if you want to be able to communicate in Japanese properly).

Oh, and if you start off with "counting" (cardinals, ordinals, counters), be prepared to be very confused. :evillaugh: (numbers alone are fine, though.)

 

[Axandra]

Be careful what you wish

Learning Japanese must be one of the weirdest undertakings I've ever committed to and I've never been more frustrated with anything in my life than with my slow progress in this language.

While I can speak daily Japanese fluently (even some keigo here and there), read hiragana, katakana, and a couple of hundreds kanji, this language's got to be one of the toughest locks to open in this world. It even got to the point that my enthusiasm greatly diminished after taking the JLPT 3 kyu...

I wouldn't discourage anyone in giving it a try, even if just for the fun and pleasure of discovering new things but, if you're dead on learning it seriously, be prepared to sport a samurai spirit and perseverance, a zen-like calm and patience, not to mention the long and absolutely everyday hours of practice. Welcome to the study that never ends!

Otherwise, as a window to a fascinating culture, Japanese is simply beautiful! You'll love learning it!

 

[Denamic]

Really?
Although I'm at a low level, barely able to speak at all, but able to listen and understand, I find the language simple, almost easy to learn.
But kanji, on the other hand, is something I'm struggling a bit with.

 

[Sakunyuusha]

While I can speak daily Japanese fluently

It even got to the point that my enthusiasm greatly diminished after taking the JLPT 3 kyu...

The only way the first statement can be true is if you passed the JLPT Level 3 exam a long time ago and are currently at Level 1 or else you mean to tell us that you speak it fluently but can't read very well. Assuming the latter, I find that very impressive, actually, and encourage you to buck up. For most (alphabetic) languages, it's easier to read without any preparation than it is to listen without preparation; and it's easier to write without any preparation than it is to speak without any preparation. But with Japanese, there are two popular opinions:

CAMP 1: because Japanese has a disproportionately high amount of homophones compared with other languages, people say that they have trouble reading hiragana or listening to the spoken word. Kanji, by virtue of their intricacy, are quite unique and therefore less easy to mistake for other words. And as one dives deeper into Japanese literature, one leaves behind sentences that look like あなたがうんめいを and arrives at 貴方が運命を. Thus, listening is harder than reading (and reading in pure kana is harder than reading in kanji).

CAMP 2: because Japanese uses an orthographic system of writing as opposed to an alphabetic one, and because this system has over 2000 non-rare characters which are permutations of the same 100-odd radicals recombined in different patterns, it is very easy to not be able to recognize what is written down on paper even if one really knows the word (e.g. one knows ぜつぼう zetsubou but can't recognize it as 絶望). As this problem is absent with spoken language, reading is harder than listening.

My point to you is, Japanese is one of those rare languages where both camps exist and have very legitimate arguments. Because of this, you must not get depressed if other students seem to be more proficient than you in one area or if a certain exam (even the prestigious JLPT) tells you that you aren't very proficient.

I belong to Camp #1 myself. It doesn't matter what language I am speaking (even my native tongue): I have very selective hearing, so I often mishear what people say and have to ask them to say it again or say it more slowly. So for me, I'll immediately tell you that translating doujinshi is a breeze but translating J-pop is a nightmare. I have friends who feel the exact opposite. If you belong to their camp, I would say to you "Don't sweat it!" To me and to many others in Camp #1, it's remarkable that despite struggling with the written language you claim to speak Japanese fluently.

...................... you do speak Japanese fluently though, right? >_>

 

[guy]

Yeah, 3級 isn't exactly something to be proud of. I mean it's definitely an achievement, but I've gotten past 2級 and I still don't consider myself fully fluent (same goes for people who know "how to pass" 1級 but lose it when it comes to talking face-to-face). I mean, watching Japanese news and understanding every single word (and rhetoric) is completely different from "following along and understanding the gist of it".

Of course, not that you need to push yourself to such a level. Many people have no trouble watching drama or anime (as well as some light reading) and striking up light conversation about it, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's all about why you want to learn Japanese and what you want to use it for, and being realistic about your personal expectations.

と言う訳で、頑張ってね～　ヽ( ・∀・)ノ

 

[Nitt]

I personally use Tae Kim's Japanese Guide to Japanese (which has been linked to at least twice already) and I'm extremely satisfied with it so far. I've also made use of SRS' (Spaced Repetition Software) to memorize stuff - mainly the kana, but I'm getting started on kanji and particles etc. The program I use is Mnemosyne, which has ready-made packs for the kana and several other languages. In addition to this, I listen to lots of Japanese music, watch lots of (subbed) anime, and I'm applying for courses at a local university. I even own several Japanese games to provide that little extra motivation which is sometimes needed.

My ambition is to within two years be proficient enough to continue learning the language in Japan through a student exchange program. We'll see how that turns out, but if I fail, at least I'll still have the games and anime to turn to

 

[gakido]

Been self-learning for 2 years now, started with no knowledge of the language. Picked up about 1,800+ kanji and still learning. I'd say that listen and picking up the words is the hardest part. Learning kanji has become like a hobby to me now, plus it really challenges the memorizing part of the mind. If you're not patience and not willing to put in a lot of efforts...you won't get very far. < (_ _) >

Ah, forgot... 和製英語　(Japanized English)　and 擬声語　（Imitated sound) e.g. ぐちゃぐちゃ　びしょびしょ etc... well frustrate the hell out of you. Especially Japanized English, I'm not good at it at all. lol. Imitated sound words are fun but also can drive you crazy... Just a lot of learning to do with a this language~

 

[Nitt]

Been self-learning for 2 years now, started with no knowledge of the language. Picked up about 1,800+ kanji and still learning. I'd say that listen and picking up the words is the hardest part. Learning kanji has become like a hobby to me now, plus it really challenges the memorizing part of the mind. If you're not patience and not willing to put in a lot of efforts...you won't get very far. < (_ _) >

Nice! Hopefully I'll acchieve (spelling?) similar results in my two years

 

[jupiter999]

go date a japanese girl. your japanese will improve faster than you think.

I wish so, but it's easier to say than done...

 

[Axandra]

@ Sakunyuusha & @ guy:
-------------------------

Thank you for your reply posts featuring some great insights there. I only wished you hadn't somehow missed my point: it's there, in the second half of my post.

I must admit that I was taken aback a little by what I perceived to be some slight innuendos and I could just exit the discussion here, since there's nothing forcing me to justify my recent statements. However, both of you have taken the time to reply at lenght, with valid points and valuable arguments: I really appreciate this. It's what gives an online community respectability and not only.

So, while I'm aware of that saying "on the Internet nobody knows you're a dog", let me assure you it wasn't the case here -- I do speak *daily* Japanese fluently. (I should've stressed the word "daily" as I innitially intended to; who said the devil isn't in details?) If you throw me into the academic language or ask me to understand jargon, then I'm totally "lost in translation".

Furthermore, as guy correctly put it, "3 kyu isn't exactly something to be proud of". Guess that having taken it, I'd be aware of that... Yet, I've been living, working, and hanging out with my friends here for almost 5 years now, and the conversations usually go beyond topics on weather or Japanese baseball. In other words, I'm a fully functional member of this society (of which the paperwork involved in any non-/semi-/official enterprise I hate most, no offense...)

Concluding here I'd say that yes, I consider myself lucky, Sakunyuusha, but my despair comes from falling into what you call the second camp. Still, something good came out of this little chat: my pride was stirred enough to follow guy's encouragement and go for 2 kyu in December. (Guess I gotta remember how to learn after 3 years...)

I guess this'll leave less time for JAV though... as if it weren't so little already.

Cheers!